Cryptography-Digest Digest #305, Volume #14 Sun, 6 May 01 18:13:01 EDT
Contents:
Re: Tiny s-boxes (Tim Tyler)
Re: free en/decryption library (Jim Gillogly)
Re: research on polymorphic crypto/Best Possible Privacy? ("Tom St Denis")
Re: free en/decryption library ("Tom St Denis")
Re: LUCIFER ("Henrick Hellstr�m")
Re: LUCIFER ("Tom St Denis")
Re: research on polymorphic crypto/Best Possible Privacy? ("Mark G Wolf")
Re: research on polymorphic crypto/Best Possible Privacy? ("Tom St Denis")
Re: research on polymorphic crypto/Best Possible Privacy? ("Mark G Wolf")
Re: LUCIFER ("Henrick Hellstr�m")
Re: research on polymorphic crypto/Best Possible Privacy? ("Tom St Denis")
Re: LUCIFER ("Tom St Denis")
Re: LUCIFER ("Scott Fluhrer")
Re: LUCIFER ("Tom St Denis")
Re: research on polymorphic crypto/Best Possible Privacy? ("Mark G Wolf")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Tim Tyler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Tiny s-boxes
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 20:00:12 GMT
Paul Rubin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: Tim Tyler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
:> Paul Rubin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
:> : 3way is described in Applied Cryptography.
:>
:> Thanks. I /did/ look there - but I went to the index - and there were
:> no entries under "3" or the author's name...
: It's definitely in there. Look under Three-way, or in the table of
: contents, or just flip through the chapter on block ciphers til you find it.
I think you must have responded to those two lines before reading
the next one, or something.
--
__________
|im |yler [EMAIL PROTECTED] Home page: http://alife.co.uk/tim/
------------------------------
From: Jim Gillogly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: free en/decryption library
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 13:16:08 -0700
Tom St Denis wrote:
> "Jim Gillogly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Frank Uepping wrote:
> > > I am new with en/decryption and I am looking for a free and open
> > > en/decryption C/C++ library that compiles with gcc and C++ Builder.
> >
> > There are several good ones. Try (as a randomly selected example)
> > the OpenSSL package at www.openssl.org . If it's a mission-critical
> > project (i.e. your pension depends on getting it right), you should
> > get someone with crypto experience involved. If not, you've have
> > some interesting learning ahead of you.
>
> The stressed part here is not only get the right tools but know how to use
> em. Just using OpenSSL is not enough to make a secure application.
He didn't say what he wanted it for. He just asked for a library.
I think it was sufficient for me to warn him that this URL will not
make him a cryptographer.
--
Jim Gillogly
15 Thrimidge S.R. 2001, 20:14
12.19.8.3.11, 6 Chuen 9 Uo, Eighth Lord of Night
------------------------------
From: "Tom St Denis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: research on polymorphic crypto/Best Possible Privacy?
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 20:26:43 GMT
"Mark G Wolf" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:9d4aml$5n5q$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > Actaully that portion of german blood in my viens
> > feels sick when you say its good becasue it german. It is
>
> Hey, what do you call someone who hates Germans, "Nazi" is clearly
> inappropriate. Jew perhaps.
Leave your hate at the door please. This is suppose to be a scientific
forum.
Tom
------------------------------
From: "Tom St Denis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: free en/decryption library
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 20:31:20 GMT
"Jim Gillogly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Tom St Denis wrote:
> > "Jim Gillogly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Frank Uepping wrote:
> > > > I am new with en/decryption and I am looking for a free and open
> > > > en/decryption C/C++ library that compiles with gcc and C++ Builder.
> > >
> > > There are several good ones. Try (as a randomly selected example)
> > > the OpenSSL package at www.openssl.org . If it's a mission-critical
> > > project (i.e. your pension depends on getting it right), you should
> > > get someone with crypto experience involved. If not, you've have
> > > some interesting learning ahead of you.
> >
> > The stressed part here is not only get the right tools but know how to
use
> > em. Just using OpenSSL is not enough to make a secure application.
>
> He didn't say what he wanted it for. He just asked for a library.
> I think it was sufficient for me to warn him that this URL will not
> make him a cryptographer.
I think it is. Walk into chapters (or whatever bookstore you have) and look
around. 98% of the books are "self-help" related in the sense of "neurology
for dummies" etc.... Too many people are "specialists" in their "field"
(i.e IT specialists) my guess is whiting 10 years the workforce of every
nation will be supersaturated with these "highly qualified" specialists that
the world will come to an end. ***
Moral: If you dabble with crypto become a cryptographer. Simple as that.
Otherwise leave the crypto work to someone else.
Tom
** In case you are wondering... in Canada it's very popular to become a
"computer engineer" or "computer scientist" by simply learning how to
output "hello world" in C++. These people then go onto working on real
projects that require real comp.sci majors. I know first hand since I am in
a diploma comp.sci course and on the first day I took two pages of "just
plain wrong" notes. For example, my teacher said that "any machine with
64kb memory is useless" etc...
------------------------------
From: "Henrick Hellstr�m" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: LUCIFER
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 22:40:22 +0200
"Tom St Denis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> skrev i meddelandet
news:k9iJ6.31749$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
[snip]
> Another question. I am new to group theory (heck I am new to all theory
> essentially). I know what a single cycle (convolution) is but what is a
> "cyclic decomposition"?
>
> Is that related to Cauchy's theory of composition of all permuations can
be
> formed by a set of disjoint permutations? (arrg... been a while since I
> looked at any of this)
Yes, you are right, except that AFAIK Cauchy's theorem is something
different (namely that if a prime p divides the order of a group G, then G
has an element of order p). I don't know who first proved the theorem about
cyclic decomposition of permutations. The theorem is anonymous in my copy of
"Basic Abstract Algebra" by Bhattacharya, Jain & Nagpaul. Maybe it was
Cauchy...?
An example to refresh your memory:
Suppose that f(0) = 0, f(1) = 2, f(2) = 3, f(3) = 1. The cyclic
decomposition of f would then be (0)(1 2 3). There are two cycles: f(0) = 0
is a fixed point and hence a single element cycle. The other elements form a
three element cycle. (1 2 3) means that 1 maps to 2, 2 maps to 3 and 3 maps
to first first element listed in the cycle, i.e. 1. The cycle (1 2 3) is
equivalent to (2 3 1) and (3 1 2). The cycle (1 3 2) is however different,
since it is equivalent to f(1) = 3, f(3) = 2, f(2) = 1.
A third kind of notation is to describe permutations as products of
pair-wise transpositions. Start with the identity map <0 1 2 3> and swap two
elements in the map at a time. The permutation f above is e.g. equivalent to
(1 2)(2 3). The second transposition might be a bit tricky to interpret,
since the number 2 refers to position 2 in the present map (which contains
element 1 after the first transposition) and not element 2. The result will
be the map f = <0 2 3 1>. Pair-wise transpositions are essential to both
regular computer science (e.g. the QuickSort algorithm) and cryptology (e.g.
RC4).
--
Henrick Hellstr�m [EMAIL PROTECTED]
StreamSec HB http://www.streamsec.com
------------------------------
From: "Tom St Denis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: LUCIFER
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 20:46:43 GMT
"Henrick Hellstr�m" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:9d4cuq$hq4$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> "Tom St Denis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> skrev i meddelandet
> news:k9iJ6.31749$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> [snip]
> > Another question. I am new to group theory (heck I am new to all theory
> > essentially). I know what a single cycle (convolution) is but what is a
> > "cyclic decomposition"?
> >
> > Is that related to Cauchy's theory of composition of all permuations can
> be
> > formed by a set of disjoint permutations? (arrg... been a while since I
> > looked at any of this)
>
>
> Yes, you are right, except that AFAIK Cauchy's theorem is something
> different (namely that if a prime p divides the order of a group G, then G
> has an element of order p). I don't know who first proved the theorem
about
> cyclic decomposition of permutations. The theorem is anonymous in my copy
of
> "Basic Abstract Algebra" by Bhattacharya, Jain & Nagpaul. Maybe it was
> Cauchy...?
>
> An example to refresh your memory:
>
> Suppose that f(0) = 0, f(1) = 2, f(2) = 3, f(3) = 1. The cyclic
> decomposition of f would then be (0)(1 2 3). There are two cycles: f(0) =
0
> is a fixed point and hence a single element cycle. The other elements form
a
> three element cycle. (1 2 3) means that 1 maps to 2, 2 maps to 3 and 3
maps
> to first first element listed in the cycle, i.e. 1. The cycle (1 2 3) is
> equivalent to (2 3 1) and (3 1 2). The cycle (1 3 2) is however different,
> since it is equivalent to f(1) = 3, f(3) = 2, f(2) = 1.
Thanks this helps a lot :-) (nice to see sci.crypt working...) so
basically all disjoint perms get their own brackets? i.e (x y z)(a b c d)(e
f) would describe a function of 3+7+2=12 elements and three disjoint perms
(one of 3 elements, 4 elements and two?)
Tom
------------------------------
From: "Mark G Wolf" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: research on polymorphic crypto/Best Possible Privacy?
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 15:57:10 -0500
> > > Actaully that portion of german blood in my viens
> > > feels sick when you say its good becasue it german. It is
> >
> > Hey, what do you call someone who hates Germans, "Nazi" is clearly
> > inappropriate. Jew perhaps.
>
> Leave your hate at the door please. This is suppose to be a scientific
> forum.
Well that's a very bigoted biased reaction, maybe I should be asking you to
leave your hate at the door. There were two parts to my post both of which
were a direct response to someone else's post, not yours, yet you zeroed in
on this specific part while adding nothing to this scientific forum. Are
you thought police or do you feel you have some special right to tell people
what they can or cannot say. Your the hater, and might I add very insecure
by the looks of your posts. So please, if YOU have nothing pertinent to
say, I will kindly ask for you to leave your hateful bigotry at the door.
------------------------------
From: "Tom St Denis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: research on polymorphic crypto/Best Possible Privacy?
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 21:15:20 GMT
"Mark G Wolf" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:9d4dtk$2v2m$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > > Actaully that portion of german blood in my viens
> > > > feels sick when you say its good becasue it german. It is
> > >
> > > Hey, what do you call someone who hates Germans, "Nazi" is clearly
> > > inappropriate. Jew perhaps.
> >
> > Leave your hate at the door please. This is suppose to be a scientific
> > forum.
>
> Well that's a very bigoted biased reaction, maybe I should be asking you
to
> leave your hate at the door. There were two parts to my post both of
which
> were a direct response to someone else's post, not yours, yet you zeroed
in
> on this specific part while adding nothing to this scientific forum. Are
> you thought police or do you feel you have some special right to tell
people
> what they can or cannot say. Your the hater, and might I add very
insecure
> by the looks of your posts. So please, if YOU have nothing pertinent to
> say, I will kindly ask for you to leave your hateful bigotry at the door.
So we should all be jew haters?
Tom
------------------------------
From: "Mark G Wolf" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: research on polymorphic crypto/Best Possible Privacy?
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 16:35:00 -0500
> So we should all be jew haters?
That's a very bizarre thought process you have. How did you come to ask
that question? Why not ask, "So we should all be German haters"? Or by
asking the question do wish to implicate that is what the discussion is
about. I have noticed that people often "look" for hate. If you put enough
effort into looking for it you will eventually generate it. Either way I'm
not German, nor do I wish to address this topic, especially with someone
such as yourself since you seem to be somewhat paranoid, possibly dangerous.
------------------------------
From: "Henrick Hellstr�m" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: LUCIFER
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 23:41:17 +0200
"Tom St Denis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> skrev i meddelandet
news:TKiJ6.31848$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> "Henrick Hellstr�m" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:9d4cuq$hq4$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > An example to refresh your memory:
> >
> > Suppose that f(0) = 0, f(1) = 2, f(2) = 3, f(3) = 1. The cyclic
> > decomposition of f would then be (0)(1 2 3). There are two cycles: f(0)
=
> 0
> > is a fixed point and hence a single element cycle. The other elements
form
> a
> > three element cycle. (1 2 3) means that 1 maps to 2, 2 maps to 3 and 3
> maps
> > to first first element listed in the cycle, i.e. 1. The cycle (1 2 3) is
> > equivalent to (2 3 1) and (3 1 2). The cycle (1 3 2) is however
different,
> > since it is equivalent to f(1) = 3, f(3) = 2, f(2) = 1.
>
> Thanks this helps a lot :-) (nice to see sci.crypt working...) so
> basically all disjoint perms get their own brackets? i.e (x y z)(a b c
d)(e
> f) would describe a function of 3+7+2=12 elements and three disjoint perms
> (one of 3 elements, 4 elements and two?)
Yes, if the cycles are disjoint, then the decomposition is unique, except
for the order of the cycles and the order of the elements within each cycle.
But you may also in a similar manner "multiply" permutations that are not
disjoint. That's what you do when you describe a permutation as a sequence
of pair-wise transpositions.
--
Henrick Hellstr�m [EMAIL PROTECTED]
StreamSec HB http://www.streamsec.com
------------------------------
From: "Tom St Denis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: research on polymorphic crypto/Best Possible Privacy?
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 21:47:40 GMT
"Mark G Wolf" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:9d4g4m$8ba0$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > So we should all be jew haters?
>
> That's a very bizarre thought process you have. How did you come to ask
> that question? Why not ask, "So we should all be German haters"? Or by
> asking the question do wish to implicate that is what the discussion is
> about. I have noticed that people often "look" for hate. If you put
enough
> effort into looking for it you will eventually generate it. Either way
I'm
> not German, nor do I wish to address this topic, especially with someone
> such as yourself since you seem to be somewhat paranoid, possibly
dangerous.
This is OT so let this be the last public post. (Just to clear myself...)
Someone posted
> > > Hey, what do you call someone who hates Germans, "Nazi" is clearly
> > > inappropriate. Jew perhaps.
That states that all Jews hate Germans. I am not Jewish myself but the
clustering may seem unfair to others. That's like saying all white folk
hate them niggers. etc...
Anyways this is OT...
Tom
------------------------------
From: "Tom St Denis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: LUCIFER
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 21:50:14 GMT
"Henrick Hellstr�m" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:9d4geb$mad$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> "Tom St Denis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> skrev i meddelandet
> news:TKiJ6.31848$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >
> > "Henrick Hellstr�m" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:9d4cuq$hq4$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > An example to refresh your memory:
> > >
> > > Suppose that f(0) = 0, f(1) = 2, f(2) = 3, f(3) = 1. The cyclic
> > > decomposition of f would then be (0)(1 2 3). There are two cycles:
f(0)
> =
> > 0
> > > is a fixed point and hence a single element cycle. The other elements
> form
> > a
> > > three element cycle. (1 2 3) means that 1 maps to 2, 2 maps to 3 and 3
> > maps
> > > to first first element listed in the cycle, i.e. 1. The cycle (1 2 3)
is
> > > equivalent to (2 3 1) and (3 1 2). The cycle (1 3 2) is however
> different,
> > > since it is equivalent to f(1) = 3, f(3) = 2, f(2) = 1.
> >
> > Thanks this helps a lot :-) (nice to see sci.crypt working...) so
> > basically all disjoint perms get their own brackets? i.e (x y z)(a b c
> d)(e
> > f) would describe a function of 3+7+2=12 elements and three disjoint
perms
> > (one of 3 elements, 4 elements and two?)
>
>
> Yes, if the cycles are disjoint, then the decomposition is unique, except
> for the order of the cycles and the order of the elements within each
cycle.
> But you may also in a similar manner "multiply" permutations that are not
> disjoint. That's what you do when you describe a permutation as a sequence
> of pair-wise transpositions.
Does that mean you can describe any finite function as a series of disjoint
perms? i.e
(1 3 5)(2 4) would be the function {3, 4, 5, 2, 1}?
Tom
------------------------------
From: "Scott Fluhrer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: LUCIFER
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 14:48:22 -0700
Tom St Denis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:qGjJ6.32436$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> "Henrick Hellstr�m" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:9d4geb$mad$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > "Tom St Denis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> skrev i meddelandet
> > news:TKiJ6.31848$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > >
> > > "Henrick Hellstr�m" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > news:9d4cuq$hq4$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > > An example to refresh your memory:
> > > >
> > > > Suppose that f(0) = 0, f(1) = 2, f(2) = 3, f(3) = 1. The cyclic
> > > > decomposition of f would then be (0)(1 2 3). There are two cycles:
> f(0)
> > =
> > > 0
> > > > is a fixed point and hence a single element cycle. The other
elements
> > form
> > > a
> > > > three element cycle. (1 2 3) means that 1 maps to 2, 2 maps to 3 and
3
> > > maps
> > > > to first first element listed in the cycle, i.e. 1. The cycle (1 2
3)
> is
> > > > equivalent to (2 3 1) and (3 1 2). The cycle (1 3 2) is however
> > different,
> > > > since it is equivalent to f(1) = 3, f(3) = 2, f(2) = 1.
> > >
> > > Thanks this helps a lot :-) (nice to see sci.crypt working...) so
> > > basically all disjoint perms get their own brackets? i.e (x y z)(a b
c
> > d)(e
> > > f) would describe a function of 3+7+2=12 elements and three disjoint
> perms
> > > (one of 3 elements, 4 elements and two?)
> >
> >
> > Yes, if the cycles are disjoint, then the decomposition is unique,
except
> > for the order of the cycles and the order of the elements within each
> cycle.
> > But you may also in a similar manner "multiply" permutations that are
not
> > disjoint. That's what you do when you describe a permutation as a
sequence
> > of pair-wise transpositions.
>
> Does that mean you can describe any finite function as a series of
disjoint
> perms? i.e
Not arbitrary function, but any finite permutation, yes...
>
> (1 3 5)(2 4) would be the function {3, 4, 5, 2, 1}?
Correct.
--
poncho
------------------------------
From: "Tom St Denis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: LUCIFER
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 22:03:04 GMT
"Scott Fluhrer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:9d4hgr$rfb$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> Tom St Denis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:qGjJ6.32436$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >
> > "Henrick Hellstr�m" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:9d4geb$mad$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > "Tom St Denis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> skrev i meddelandet
> > > news:TKiJ6.31848$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > >
> > > > "Henrick Hellstr�m" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > > news:9d4cuq$hq4$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > > > An example to refresh your memory:
> > > > >
> > > > > Suppose that f(0) = 0, f(1) = 2, f(2) = 3, f(3) = 1. The cyclic
> > > > > decomposition of f would then be (0)(1 2 3). There are two cycles:
> > f(0)
> > > =
> > > > 0
> > > > > is a fixed point and hence a single element cycle. The other
> elements
> > > form
> > > > a
> > > > > three element cycle. (1 2 3) means that 1 maps to 2, 2 maps to 3
and
> 3
> > > > maps
> > > > > to first first element listed in the cycle, i.e. 1. The cycle (1 2
> 3)
> > is
> > > > > equivalent to (2 3 1) and (3 1 2). The cycle (1 3 2) is however
> > > different,
> > > > > since it is equivalent to f(1) = 3, f(3) = 2, f(2) = 1.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks this helps a lot :-) (nice to see sci.crypt working...) so
> > > > basically all disjoint perms get their own brackets? i.e (x y z)(a
b
> c
> > > d)(e
> > > > f) would describe a function of 3+7+2=12 elements and three disjoint
> > perms
> > > > (one of 3 elements, 4 elements and two?)
> > >
> > >
> > > Yes, if the cycles are disjoint, then the decomposition is unique,
> except
> > > for the order of the cycles and the order of the elements within each
> > cycle.
> > > But you may also in a similar manner "multiply" permutations that are
> not
> > > disjoint. That's what you do when you describe a permutation as a
> sequence
> > > of pair-wise transpositions.
> >
> > Does that mean you can describe any finite function as a series of
> disjoint
> > perms? i.e
> Not arbitrary function, but any finite permutation, yes...
>
> >
> > (1 3 5)(2 4) would be the function {3, 4, 5, 2, 1}?
> Correct.
Cool, learn something each day :-)
Hoorah. Thanks guys.
Tom
------------------------------
From: "Mark G Wolf" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: research on polymorphic crypto/Best Possible Privacy?
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 17:05:18 -0500
> > > > Hey, what do you call someone who hates Germans, "Nazi" is clearly
> > > > inappropriate. Jew perhaps.
>
> That states that all Jews hate Germans. I am not Jewish myself but the
> clustering may seem unfair to others. That's like saying all white folk
> hate them niggers. etc...
Yes, let this be the last post. That was a response to someone implying
they felt sick for being part German, so it takes on a slightly different
"color" being out of context. And yes being white I often feel unfairly
labeled as a "hater", it seems a very popular thing to do nowadays. I've
even been race baited in my place of employment. Why I don't know. It
seems people have a need to find if not outright create through constant
harassment and stalking dragons they can slay. It can be very profitable
they say. Those kinds of people can be hated for justifiable reasons. Of
course the best way to deal with them is through the courts. There needs to
be sweeping privacy reform in our legal system, including criminal
prosecution and jail time for egregious offenders. But this OT, so enough
said.
------------------------------
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