Pain, Password-protected, Personal Recovery, Salvation Seasons, Secular Wings, Spiritual Abuse, Trauma Talk

Fear

106 Comments

I’ve written before about how my mother couldn’t/wouldn’t believe that I actually thought The Flood, Noah and the ark actually happened.  Gently, the opposite of mom’s approach, I confirmed yes, it’s true.  I believed it.  My mother considers me a very intelligent person.  I think it’s likely that saying I’m intelligent makes her feel better.  But she can’t figure out how an intelligent person could ever believe those Bible stories were/are true.

No you didn’t!  (A common refrain to my admittance of truths throughout my life.)  “Oh Zoe that’s not true and you know it.”

I’ve also written that the last time my mom asked me “Why?” (I believed the story was true) I told her nobody told me any different.  Snubbed her up a bit.  But I guess we intelligent sorts are suppose to be able to figure that all out on our own.  Being so damn intelligent.

Often, we are asked the question “Why?” and my first thought is, “Why not?”

Do you ever get tired of that question “Why?”  I do.  I know I’m really tired to the point now of just responding, “Why not?”  And then telling people to do some research on their own about beliefs, spiritual abuse and whatever else there is to research.  I did it and without anybody telling me to do so.  After so many years out of the rat-race (our former belief system) do we owe anybody an answer to “Why?”

And if we answer the root reason, which often is “fear” do we have to explain that, really?  Isn’t that answer enough?  Or do we have to go into little bitty details to satisfy someone’s curiosity?

And if we’ve been blogging about this stuff for years, and someone is reading our blog, and still asks “Why?” then is that our problem?  Are we poor communicator’s?   Do I really have to say, ‘I was fucking scared of family suicidal depressions, threats and the damn gun in the basement and someone murdering me’ or can I just say, “fear”?  I believed because I was born into Christianity.  I went to church camp at probably the most vulnerable I had ever been in my early teens. I went in scared shitless, I was further scared shitless at camp and a little prayer to Jesus was my answer.  In that moment I was saved.  Still scared shitless but guaranteed saved.

Today, I am faced with a mother who finds herself totally indoctrinated into The Golden Age of Gaia stuff.  And I’m the stupid one for believing Noah and the flood was real.  Weird eh?  I don’t ask my mother the “Why?” question.  Why do you believe this stuff mom?  I don’t ask her that question.  I know the answer.

Fear.

 

106 thoughts on “Fear”

  2. I think fear explains one reason for religious belief but not all of it (same with guns in the US…there are many complicated reasons as to why gun culture thrives here). As I stated on Victoria’s blog, I don’t believe any of us can give a definitive answer as to “why” we were religious, as the reasons are a complex stew of nature and nurture.

    You bring up a good point though, Zoe…should we have to constantly explain “why” we were religious? I don’t think we should have to (unless we are so inclined). Perhaps we can say, “It’s complicated” and leave it at that. :)

    Liked by 2 people

  3. For me it was acceptance. I thought what impacted me was acceptance by God but it was really acceptance by a group of people. Once that became my identity at age 14, all else I learned from then on was filtered. Facts had to compete with my identity. Contrary facts were enemies.

    Liked by 2 people

  4. I think I might have gone off a bit about the “why” question today. Normally it doesn’t bother me. It came from someone I esteem, someone who has been reading around our respective blogs for some time, and in a way I hadn’t expected. Perhaps I read more into the query than was intended. It felt personal.

    Liked by 1 person

  5. Zoe –

    I posted a comment on Nan’s blog that I think may well be of particular significance to you —

    Some of your readers may get something from it too.

    Liked by 1 person

  6. Ruth, I think it has to be acknowledged that the “why” question can be extremely triggering for deconverts. I have seen several respected, lifelong atheists go off on this question very recently and my gut reaction is to always be highly offended…I just can’t help it. I don’t know if the atheists asking these questions were trying to be offensive or not, but the fact remains it plays into all the shame and guilt and stupidity I already feel over being bamboozled by religion for so long.

    I have made great efforts to try and catch myself in the midst of my overwhelming defensiveness, and then force myself to depersonalize it and answer with some level of logic and sanity. Sometimes I can do it and sometimes I can’t. That’s the way we humans roll with our emotional reactions. Triggers are a bitch.

    Liked by 2 people

  7. Well said, Zoe. I was taken aback by the question “Why” today. Had it been someone who has lived in a bubble their entire life, and has never read blog posts and comments about this subject, I might have cut them a little slack. It’s not easy putting ourselves out there, and it came across as insensitive.

    But for the same reason they ask “why” to us, I’ll ask “why” back. Why are you acting so clueless? I question the sincerity of the question given the past feedback from the commenter, as well as the vast amount of research said person has been exposed to about religious indoctrination.

    Liked by 1 person

  8. I must say I was a bit taken aback as well by what happened. I generally think most lifelong atheists understand indoctrination to a good degree, and I credit many of them with helping me overcome my own deep indoctrination. So it’s a bit shocking when I find a lifelong atheist who (out of the blue) shows a huge gap between what they know intellectually versus what they know emotionally. I chalk this up to the fact that they don’t have any personal experience with indoctrination. They can usually appreciate it, they can usually sympathize with it, but because they haven’t lived it in all it’s horribleness, they can occasionally be insensitive. At least that’s my take on what happened today, Victoria…I could be wrong.

    Liked by 2 people

  9. Let’s just put it this way, Violet — I’m glad I did a lot of back spacing in my OP. I almost didn’t publish this post, but did after I deleted a lot of personal stuff. As much as I’d like to write (more in depth) about my personal experiences with religion, I hold back. I guess it goes to show you that people can have book intelligence, but lack emotional intelligence. The think that bothered me the most is that this is not the first time this person has asked the question “why”and had it explained, before. As I mentioned previously, several of us have shared the research extensively. How many times does it have to be repeated to the same people?

    Liked by 2 people

  11. I totally understand what you’re talking about…and yet I have seen this same situation happen four times in the last two weeks (by three different lifelong atheists and one extremely progressive christian). It’s shocked me each time I saw it. It makes me wonder if these people were upset about something in their own lives while commenting, and they lost their empathy for a moment? I don’t really understand it myself.

    Liked by 2 people

  13. I can only hope we all remain at least somewhat civil toward each other as atheists, because we sure as fuck aren’t getting an ounce of respect from christians. And that is a tide that is not good to stand alone against.

    Liked by 1 person

  14. Speaking of fear, let’s take a quick look at Hebrews and see where a lot of the fear comes from.

    The text is traditionally attributed to Paul the Apostle, but doubt on Pauline authorship was reported early by Eusebius, and modern biblical scholarship considers its authorship unknown, perhaps written in deliberate imitation of the style of Paul.
    –Wikipedia —

    According to Bart Ehrman, this sermon/epistle was written to address Christians were were considering leaving the church and its belief system – in essence, apostasy. It was the anonymous author’s self-appointed job to frighten them back into the fold.

    In Hebrews 3:7-18, the author asks if those who were disobedient to Moses, god’s servant, were destroyed in the wilderness, imagine what will happen to those who disobey Jesus, god’s son!

    In 6:1-6, the author claims that there can be no hope of salvation for those who have “fallen away” after having “been enlightened,” for those who leave the faith once joined.

    He gets even more explicit in chapter 10:
    “If we willfully persist in sin after having received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgement and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries [vv26-27]….It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living god [v.29]”

    George Carlin might have added, “…but he loves you —”

    Evidently, says Ehrman, some of them were tempted to fall away, possibly through doubt that Jesus was in fact the Messiah or divine, and he’s doing everything in his power to stop them.

    Can anyone see what effect such a message, delivered powerfully, could have on a superstitious people? Of course you can, that, and messages like it, have had a similar effect on most of you.

    Liked by 2 people

  15. Hey, Victoria.

    I’m just going to say what I was already thinking. I think that whole attitude carried over from a previous conversation on another blog post that had nothing to do with religion. I didn’t even participate in the covers at ion but I did read it. It’s interesting what you learn about people even on the net. Perhaps it’s difficult for them to seperate the issues.

    Liked by 2 people

  16. You all know I appreciate you, right? Thanks for chatting while I got some much needed sleep. Hectic schedule here in SWO with visiting family.

    I thought that what Victoria wrote yesterday (along with Neil) was so moving. And when a “Why?” question comes up I wonder to myself, ‘Can the person not read between the lines?’ And Victoria’s posts are just chuck full of answering the “Why?” questions. Sometimes the more details we give the harder it is for some to believe us. In other words, we still aren’t believed because our details leave so many shaking their heads. The more details I gave my mom the more she just didn’t believe me. The more details I gave my practicing Catholic friend the more she looked at me thinking I was nuts. Yet she’s the one eating flesh and drinking blood.

    When a fellow non-believer/atheist/life-long atheist asks “Why?” but it appears couched in the “intelligence” question of “Why?” it is a trigger. I was raised to be triggered by “Why?” But do I keep it to myself or use energy to bother explaining myself? I look at Victoria’s posts and I’m grateful. Yesterday I wanted to post that a few tears irrigated my eyes yesterday and I wanted to say thank you. Thank you for writing what I once wrote about but no longer have the energy to bother with.

    Yes I was triggered. For obvious reasons. I do find the effort to explain myself rather futile. I write but I just don’t feel any drive to help others understand anymore. Most of my attempts (and I don’t mean to refer to blogging as much as life in general) are a waste of time. I have yet to meet someone in real life hear what I’ve said and say: Oh my god Zoe. I get it. I get it. I see. I understand. Thank you for helping me to understand.

    Liked by 3 people

  17. What Victoria wrote here captures the heart of the matter:

    N℮üґ☼N☮☂℮ṧ
    APRIL 6, 2016 AT 11:21 PM EDIT
    Let’s just put it this way, Violet — I’m glad I did a lot of back spacing in my OP. I almost didn’t publish this post, but did after I deleted a lot of personal stuff. As much as I’d like to write (more in depth) about my personal experiences with religion, I hold back. I guess it goes to show you that people can have book intelligence, but lack emotional intelligence. The think that bothered me the most is that this is not the first time this person has asked the question “why”and had it explained, before. As I mentioned previously, several of us have shared the research extensively. How many times does it have to be repeated to the same people?

    Liked by 2 people

  18. “The think that bothered me the most is that this is not the first time this person has asked the question “why”and had it explained, before. As I mentioned previously, several of us have shared the research extensively. How many times does it have to be repeated to the same people?”

    Am I giving her too much credit if I say that perhaps she was being a bit Machiavellian? Oh, the irony tied up in her question. Or was the irony completely lost? She’s said the same exact thing about the issue that is very near and dear to her heart. And even about those who are just learning about it; that she can’t be bothered to explain that which should be painfully obvious(but obviously isn’t).

    Liked by 2 people

  19. Zoe- For what its worth guys, I get it and have learned. Thank you all for sharing a very sensitive subject. Maybe everyone of us has been deceived without exception. I can see no reason why an atheist is any different from a believer.Steam and ice are both made of water and when in the same environment become like each other… There I go again talking about things I really know nothing much about.-MD

    Liked by 2 people

  21. We AREN’T any different, MD. ALL relationships are complicated. (I think Violet has already stated that, but it’s worth repeating)

    Liked by 2 people

  23. Zoe, thank you for your comment about my posts. It means the world to me. My last post, though completed, remained in draft since Sunday afternoon. I wrote it right after I read Neil’s post. Charity made a comment in my previous post yesterday, and that’s when I decided I would go ahead and published it, after I deleted some things. You wrote:

    ” Oh my god Zoe. I get it. I get it. I see. I understand. Thank you for helping me to understand.”

    Exactly. This is something I can’t talk about to anyone in my offline life, and even if I shared how I was impacted, they would become offended simply for the reason that they take it as having their belief attacked. Even still, they wouldn’t be able to grasp it because they never really went the distance — never read the bible — rarely went to church except when someone got married or died. Just before I deconverted, I did seek professional counseling, but she was little help to me, a believer herself.

    To my knowledge, there are no unbelieving psychologists in my neck of the woods. Look what Neil had to contend with when he was trying to save his marriage after he deconverted? So that’s when I became my own advocate, and started researching to find ways to sift through the enormity of the psychological abuse. Being a woman added more complexities due to the conscious and subconscious disdain towards women.

    So, for most of us, our only voice is online, but many end up making their blogs private, and for good reason. Finding people who “get it” is healing and so much more. I live in the most evangelical state in the U.S., and it’s gone to shit because of evangelical lawmakers who have had their pockets padded from anti-human groups like American Family Association, based in Mississippi. I know how diabolical they are because I used to be employed by them.

    I can share research about how religion can negatively impact communities and society. But, sometimes, perhaps often, readers won’t grasp the enormity of the harm unless you share personal experiences. That’s the hardest part — because you make yourself vulnerable — and take the chance of having that vulnerability held against you. That’s a fear we shouldn’t have to contend with, and especially by other unbelievers who’ve had the “whys” explained to them repeatedly for the last two years.

    Zoe, I just want to say that you have been one of those courageous people who have inspired me to be more open about my own personal experiences. From the top and bottom of my heart, thank you. <3

    Liked by 2 people

  25. I have a post in the works about this. But I wanted to say that anyone can ask me the “why” question a thousand times over. I wasn’t really triggered by the “why” question. I understand people wanting to know. And I have probably as many answers for the “why” as they have questions for it.

    No, I came a little unglued when it was explicitly and implicitly stated that intelligent people would not believe such nonsense. That was the part that triggered me. Then when it was further revealed that, even though this particular person had been reading and engaging with us for at least a couple of years, that she really hadn’t paid that much attention to what we’ve said.

    The words, “it depends how you classify ‘intelligent’, and “you don’t want the rest of my answer,” followed up with “not my fault you were indoctrinated, it’s yours,” simply cut me like a knife.

    Triggers are a bitch. And I agree with you the we have to own our own baggage in regards to them. Nobody is going to handle us with kid gloves, and nobody should be expected to walk on eggshells. It was simply the fact that Victoria’s entire OP was about how vulnerability was a key factor in her indoctrination and it seemed to me that dismissive and condescending would be the last thing that someone commenting would try to be.

    Liked by 2 people

  27. I did see Violet’s reply over on Victoria’s. I thought it was excellent!

    I think I’m going to have to clear the air with her at some point, though. Which will likely be through my post. Because I don’t want this to be a lingering sore spot. And because I do need to own my own baggage. I think my reaction to the whole thing probably says more about lingering unresolved issues I have than it does about anyone else.

    Liked by 2 people

  28. Well really, the subtext of the “why” question is always “how could you be so stupid?” I get why you reacted the way you did, because I had the same reaction. I could barely breathe right after I read it.

    However, we know this person to have been supportive of and educated by deconverts in the past. We could surmise she was either 1) a total bitch, or 2) she didn’t have a good grasp on how her insensitivity was driving the conversation in a downward spiral.

    Had she been a typical troll I would have gone with the first assumption…but knowing she has been a champion for deconverts in the past, I went with second instead. It has been mentioned before, but book knowledge is surely not the same thing as our personal, emotional knowledge.

    Have a hug…last night was bad for me too. :(

    Liked by 2 people

  29. Ruth you mentioned:

    […] And because I do need to own my own baggage. I think my reaction to the whole thing probably says more about lingering unresolved issues I have than it does about anyone else.

    Here’s the next step in this situation. There’s often an assumption that we aren’t dealing with our own baggage. I often am concerned that my writing comes across totally ad nauseum melancholic and would just repeatedly cause some people to just roll their eyes. God that Zoe needs to get a life. Like I don’t have one. Like I sit here all day a bite my nails and try to figure out if I should take an ativan or jump off a bridge.

    There’s often an implication that this is all our fault. Another trigger for many. A trigger for me just from my own upbringing and tack it on to the Biblical stuff and you get a double whammy bammy.

    I’ve busted my butt dealing with my baggage. From the people I know here, you (those with baggage) have and are busting your butts too. But that doesn’t always come through in what I share. I don’t think it should have too. It’s not the purpose of my writing, it seems.

    As for “lingering unresolved issues” part of me is concerned that we have, or might feel we have to explain ourselves or apologize and say, ‘I’m so sorry I was triggered. I’m working on this. I have issues I haven’t worked through and when I do I’ll know how to handle it better.’ The implication again that this is all our fault, instead of acknowledging that because we are in fact intelligent we can ADMIT to being triggered, to having unresolved issues and it’s bloody okay.

    I am less and less triggered every day that goes by. It has been wonderful. But it doesn’t mean that I might not still have a degree of triggering arise from time to time. I didn’t lose any sleep over it but if I had commented over there and put myself in a vulnerable position it might have been different.

    Liked by 3 people

  31. EXACTLY, Zoe. The fact that you talk about it, as I see it, is so that others who may ‘lurk’ and be feeling uncertain/bewildered/confused can have a ‘bird’s eye view’ of what it’s like to leave the faith. . and see that you are human beings – just like the rest of us – who are trying to contribute something of great value to people. Every person brings a unique perspective to a very broad topic; one never knows what explicit comment another person might identify with. It’s all about connections. . . I, for one, think it’s nothing less than HEROIC that you actually put yourselves out there and share your innermost thoughts. I know you don’t see yourselves as such but I think you ought to.

    It’s about damned time.

    Liked by 3 people

  32. “We could surmise she was either 1) a total bitch, or 2) she didn’t have a good grasp on how her insensitivity was driving the conversation in a downward spiral.”

    I think it was both 1 & 2. I also tend to agree with Ruth, that her tone was brought over from another post. I’ve done that before, myself, after being in an intense debate elsewhere. As Ruth mention, I don’t care if people ask me why, but at least read the sources that were provided in the OP, and there were several. My post are usually always resource rich. They methodically explained the whys. However, of all people, she was the last one I thought would ask why, considering the exposure over the last 2 years. So I questioned her sincerity.

    I am also in total agreement with Zoe’s last comment about having to apologize. I didn’t lose any sleep over this. I was just disappointed and frustrated over what appeared to be an insensitive insinuation. What people failed to understand is that most of us have no outside support — not even among mental health professionals. Quote from the British Association for Cognitive and Behavioral Psychotherapies: This is someone who’s experienced religious trauma:

    “If I had been discriminated against, beaten, sexually abused, traumatized by an act of violence, or raped, I would be heard. I would receive sympathy. I would be given psychological care. I would have legal recourse and protection. However, I am a trauma victim that society does not hear.”

    Followed by

    “RTS victims feel very alone because, except on certain online forums, there is virtually no public discourse in our society about trauma or emotional abuse due to religion.”

    http://www.babcp.com/Review/RTS-Trauma-from-Leaving-Religion.aspx

    So I say “fuck that noise”. We are doing the best we can, with what little resources we have to work with.

    Liked by 3 people

  33. I actually deleted my comment about PTSD and RTS from that last comment of mine Victoria. :)

    Sadly, so much of my therapy is me doing the teaching about RTS with the therapist.

    Liked by 1 person

  35. Hold the HORSES! No one should ever have to apologize for being triggered…goodness, I hope that was not taken from any of my comments. It would in fact be nice if the person who triggered you would apologize for being insensitive, but that often doesn’t happen.

    From a psych perspective: it is often when you get to the point of not being triggered very often anymore, that when you do get triggered, it’s totally unexpected…that alone can knock you on your ass. The difference is you can get up quicker now because you have more experience dealing with them. My guess is that’s why Victoria and you, Zoe, didn’t lose any sleep last night…you guys are a little further out from deconversion. I did lose sleep, but I’m used to it because I’m triggered daily.

    We can’t control our triggers, we can only work to be more aware of them…this is what I meant when I said we have to deal with our own baggage. I also try not to comment while being triggered because I inevitably say something I regret…it does still occasionally happen though.

    Liked by 3 people

  37. I was worried, because I think apologizing for ourselves *could* have been construed from some of my comments, but holy shizzle, that is not what I meant.

    Liked by 2 people

  38. N℮üґ☼N☮☂℮ṧ
    APRIL 7, 2016 AT 11:12 AM EDIT

    Zoe, thank you for your comment about my posts. It means the world to me. My last post, though completed, remained in draft since Sunday afternoon. I wrote it right after I read Neil’s post. Charity made a comment in my previous post yesterday, and that’s when I decided I would go ahead and published it, after I deleted some things. You wrote:

    ” Oh my god Zoe. I get it. I get it. I see. I understand. Thank you for helping me to understand.”

    Zoe: Brought your whole comment here to make it easier for me to comment Victoria.

    You know, giving it some thought. In my direct family experience, people think if they “understand” it implies agreement. I don’t care if they agree with me. I’m not asking them to agree. I’m just looking for them to say something like, ‘You know, I can appreciate now that you shared that with me Zoe a bit better where you are coming from.’ Or even something like this, ‘Crap, geesh, I never thought of it like that before Zoe. Thanks. You gave me something to think about.’

    Victoria:

    Exactly. This is something I can’t talk about to anyone in my offline life, and even if I shared how I was impacted, they would become offended simply for the reason that they take it as having their belief attacked. Even still, they wouldn’t be able to grasp it because they never really went the distance — never read the bible — rarely went to church except when someone got married or died. Just before I deconverted, I did seek professional counseling, but she was little help to me, a believer herself.

    To my knowledge, there are no unbelieving psychologists in my neck of the woods. Look what Neil had to contend with when he was trying to save his marriage after he deconverted? So that’s when I became my own advocate, and started researching to find ways to sift through the enormity of the psychological abuse. Being a woman added more complexities due to the conscious and subconscious disdain towards women.

    Zoe: It’s amazing to me that off-line life presents others who talk about their own beliefs, opinions and thoughts but in turn don’t really want to hear your thoughts. I’m faced with situations that leave me caught between and rock and a hard place. An example: My sister doesn’t want me to respond verbally or non-verbally with my mom (that is don’t talk at all & don’t acknowledge her beliefs) in order to ease her own anxiety. Yet, when she is triggered to the point of driving a vehicle in the city and can’t see for her own tears after being with my mother, who does she call? . . . Who you going to call? Zoe buster!

    When I started therapy I was still a Christian though out of the church. Therapy didn’t have anything to do with my deconversion but I spent a lot of time talking about spiritual abuse, legalism, literalism, etc., and felt like I was teaching the therapist how best to help me. Not only that but I sensed what he was learning from me he was using with some other patients. So technically though I sought therapy in the strangest of ways, I still had no one to talk too. I was so eager for someone to affirm me, affirm my experience and tell me I wasn’t crazy. The interesting thing is, anyone else who had come to me with a story I would have and did affirm. I just couldn’t with myself.

    Victoria:

    So, for most of us, our only voice is online, but many end up making their blogs private, and for good reason. Finding people who “get it” is healing and so much more. I live in the most evangelical state in the U.S., and it’s gone to shit because of evangelical lawmakers who have had their pockets padded from anti-human groups like American Family Association, based in Mississippi. I know how diabolical they are because I used to be employed by them.

    Zoe: I tend to want to go totally private myself. I use to think my blogging was for myself and if it helped one person it was worth it. Lately though I’m so tempted to go full-on private. I can’t believe I’m still here doing this. o_O On the opposite end of it I want to go full-monty and be the real me. But that’s the part of me that wants to stick it to the masses. Honestly, I can can’t handle the shit that would fly. So, I stay anonymous. But as the years go by more and more details surface and I wonder if that is in my best interest.

    Victoria:

    I can share research about how religion can negatively impact communities and society. But, sometimes, perhaps often, readers won’t grasp the enormity of the harm unless you share personal experiences. That’s the hardest part — because you make yourself vulnerable — and take the chance of having that vulnerability held against you. That’s a fear we shouldn’t have to contend with, and especially by other unbelievers who’ve had the “whys” explained to them repeatedly for the last two years.

    Zoe: Yes. People want the details it seems. But a lot of us have given details. But I think we humans are addicted to wanting more and more information. So, when we give a little more is expected.

    Your post was actually good for me. I felt relief that someone today is out there writing this stuff. I’m too tired and exhausted to bother. In a way I feel like I’ve done my time, you know? I feel like retiring. I look at all the years, all the years. I’d have given anything to have had the help of the internet back in the day. But I am grateful that my brain though plagued with reality read and read and read. I’m glad the logical part stayed alive and continued the dialogue with the illogical part (which was fuelled by emotional and developmental trauma.)

    Victoria:

    Zoe, I just want to say that you have been one of those courageous people who have inspired me to be more open about my own personal experiences. From the top and bottom of my heart, thank you.❤

    Zoe: I keep trying to respond but maybe you’ll understand if I just cry and few tears and smile.

    Liked by 1 person

  43. Zoe wrote:

    “Zoe: I tend to want to go totally private myself. I use to think my blogging was for myself and if it helped one person it was worth it. Lately though I’m so tempted to go full-on private. I can’t believe I’m still here doing this. o_O On the opposite end of it I want to go full-monty and be the real me. But that’s the part of me that wants to stick it to the masses. Honestly, I can’t handle the shit that would fly. So, I stay anonymous. But as the years go by more and more details surface and I wonder if that is in my best interest.”

    I just got back online, and popped in to check my stats as I got yet another notification that my starts were booming. I’m 9 hits shy of 700 on my latest blog post since I published it yesterday. About 80% are from the U.S. People are interested in topics like this — people are coming to realize they’ve been bamboozled and like you mentioned, are seeking to be affirmed — validated. It has been the main reason I haven’t gone private. I shudder to think how many people are out there who have no one to turn to. Who have no outlet. Who are fully aware of the great cost that can come with leaving religion. My daughter was disowned by her grandmother, on my late husband’s side, and removed from her Will after she found out that my daughter was no longer a believer. Her grandmother completely severed the relationship.

    You wrote:

    ” It’s amazing to me that off-line life presents others who talk about their own beliefs, opinions and thoughts but in turn don’t really want to hear your thoughts.”

    Tonight I was having dinner with my mom and step-dad. We watched the news together, and my mom said “I’m sick and tired of God and Christianity being blamed for what is happened here in Mississippi. I just kept silent. To say anything would just upset her. She needs to believe (I understand that), but is seemingly unable to see how her religion has been the main contributing factor for what’s happening here, and that it is responsible for the suffering her own daughter experience, for which she’s not ready to face, and may never be.

    I’m inclined to think that the only way they will ever know is if I should die, leaving a big part of myself, my story, online, for them to read.

    Zoe, I have been giving this a lot of thought over the last couple of months, about where I want to go with my blog as it evolves, and I do plan to be more open. I’ve tended to bury some of my experiences in the comment sections of other blogs. I think it may be beneficial to tell my story, for which I’ve only scratched the surface. Yet, I want to share some hope, too. What gets me ruffled is contending with people (believers) who are being intellectually dishonest, and most I’ve come across have been. I have little to no patience with such people, and tend to think they are Charlatans. If anything, they are enablers of religious abuse.

    LeRoy, a Christian who has been posting a lot on John Zande’s blog, told Nan that she needed to get in her place, shut up and listen — then wrote “I would trust my life to you two guys if under fire, before any shit-for-brains female like Nan. … kind of bros-before-hoes kind of thing”

    This is what, we as women, have to deal with often when we share our voice, and it can be triggering if you were once indoctrinated to be be seen but not heard. This is the mentality that I see among so many evangelical men here in the South, and among evangelicals online. Certainly not all, but like I mentioned in a previous comment, there is a lot of disdain towards women, whether conscious or subconscious, The biblical doctrine has played a significant role in this attitude here in America.

    I apologize for the ramble here, but I guess my point is that I think, no, I know I’ve come a long ways since my deconversion, and a major part of that healing — and finding my voice came from being actively involved in discourse, blogging, as well as reading blogs like yours.

    Liked by 1 person

  47. Nan, I wanted to mention that I added your name in. Professor Taboo left it out when he quoted it on John’s blog, but I knew he was talking about you because I read it on PT’s blog when LeRoy was debating with him there.

    Like

  50. He attacked Jeff via an “anonymous” email after a discussion on my blog. Some of us think he has mental problems. Serious ones.

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  51. Nan, I’ve been reading his posts for the last couple of weeks on John’s blog, and he’s commented periodically before that. I never engaged him in discourse because I kept getting red flags — that something was off with him. Really off. Also, I went to his blog to do a quick check, and there was this note on his blog that said something to the effect of “this blog has moved”, asking to click on it to take you to the other blog. It wasn’t a popup. When I did, I got a bunch of Chinese writing. My fist thought was that I had gotten a virus from his blog. So I immediately did a virus scan on my computer.

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  53. Victoria:

    People are interested in topics like this — people are coming to realize they’ve been bamboozled and like you mentioned, are seeking to be affirmed — validated. It has been the main reason I haven’t gone private.

    Zoe: I use to look around in the church mostly at other women to see if they like me were “feeling” crazy by what they were hearing. Were their heads down, did their shoulders slump? Did they sit with their heads cocked to the side like a confused puppy? When church was over, were they smiling or were they crying? Did they rush to the washroom, rush to get their children and then exit as fast as they could? Often, and this is just my take on it, I think some of us got up like robots, not robots, but stunned human beings, in shock and dissociated psychologically. Instead of looking or living redeemed we were looking and living condemned. All Eve’s.

    Victoria:

    I just kept silent.

    Zoe: If like me, you might even feel you die a little each time with your silence. The one place we should feel safe regardless of differences and we (you) have a granddaughter cut out of the will. And it is amazing how when you check out the Bible people like her grandmother get their lack of love from the very “Father” that says He loves them . . . but then drowns them a la genocide carte. (I don’t know how to make the accents.)

    I’ve got to run, okay not run, hobble around and get ready for an appointment today. Going to come back to this at some point.

    Freezing our butts here in the snow we got AGAIN last night Carmen. You? (If you are reading.) :)

    Like

  54. We got rain and lots of wind. . Items from the verandah are down the hill on someone else’s lawn this morning. . :). Snow coming Sunday, though! Enough to shovel – yaaaayy!! (Not really)

    Liked by 1 person

  58. Victoria:

    Zoe, I have been giving this a lot of thought over the last couple of months, about where I want to go with my blog as it evolves, and I do plan to be more open. I’ve tended to bury some of my experiences in the comment sections of other blogs. I think it may be beneficial to tell my story, for which I’ve only scratched the surface. Yet, I want to share some hope, too. What gets me ruffled is contending with people (believers) who are being intellectually dishonest, and most I’ve come across have been. I have little to no patience with such people, and tend to think they are Charlatans. If anything, they are enablers of religious abuse.

    Zoe: Like you, I have buried my story in the comment section, here and elsewhere, in order to get it out of me. Pulling it altogether to make some order out of it all I don’t think is going to happen. Especially as I age. I am pulled elsewhere in thought and have often thought to just take a break away from all of it and see if my brain could rest away from it or if I need to keep writing.

    The hope part. That’s the part that I think is probably missing in my writing. I think though that it’s difficult to translate it when we are dealing with “belief” all around us 24/7. How do we telescope to others that living without “God(s)” is possible? Even the most non-religious people I encounter still think there is “something” out there and look askew when you say you don’t believe there is? How do we promote hope when we’re seen as foreign bodies messing up humanity’s homeostasis? I find it difficult to get to the hope part when all we can do is try to keep up with the race. Maybe though, the hope comes in the details? Maybe those who read say to themselves, ‘If she can do it so can I.’ And therein lies the hope.

    The hope comes with one more day, one more night. Keep adding another and another and another. Even if it is one more breath. One breath at a time. Keep breathing. It’s not over. Wait. Waiting as a humanist practice. I’m going deep here but I have in mind others who didn’t wait and are no longer here. I think of a pastor (who had stopped believing but still pastoring) I came across in blogging who was despairing of his life and rather than keep lurking I gave voice, not knowing how my words would be received and later learning that they meant “life” to him and maybe just maybe I helped one more person in this life hold on, to wait . . . and stay.

    Victoria:

    LeRoy, a Christian who has been posting a lot on John Zande’s blog, told Nan that she needed to get in her place, shut up and listen — then wrote “I would trust my life to you two guys if under fire, before any shit-for-brains female like Nan. … kind of bros-before-hoes kind of thing”

    This is what, we as women, have to deal with often when we share our voice, and it can be triggering if you were once indoctrinated to be be seen but not heard. This is the mentality that I see among so many evangelical men here in the South, and among evangelicals online. Certainly not all, but like I mentioned in a previous comment, there is a lot of disdain towards women, whether conscious or subconscious, The biblical doctrine has played a significant role in this attitude here in America.

    Zoe: LeRoy sounds “meaner than a junk yard dog.”

    It’s this stuff that caused me one day to tell Biker Dude on the way home from church that I was done. I just couldn’t sit there any longer and take the shit preached about women. It made no sense. I was still a Christian but the split-infinity in my mind that a loving God would in fact suggest a woman’s place was beneath a man’s penis sent me packing. There I was with Biker Dude who just never bought into the shit and there I am thinking he should in order to be a “Godly” man . . . f u c k . . . my poor self was screwed up.

    It’s the same in evangelical circles here. And actually I often found the women were some of the worst offenders as they defended their second class status. I think it’s changing slowly. I think today’s evangelicals who claim inerrancy don’t really believe it but the benefits of togetherness in their unbelief belief outweighs the craziness of pretending something that isn’t true and they remain in it if for nothing else but to stay connected to something, someone, anyone.

    Years ago, a neighbour friend (male) and I went and had an appointment with the then Mayor of our community. After we discussed the issue at hand and leaving the office, the Mayor said to me: “You should be home sewing that missing button on your coat.” A Christian. I was pissed off big time. I replied with something like this: Well I’d have the time to do so if I didn’t have to come here to tell you how to remove snow on our street. Snubbed him big time but I swear you cut the hate with a knife. It’s beyond me why in that moment a man could be so sexist. He didn’t say anything to my male neighbour.

    Just thinking of LeRoy under-fire. He’d be fortunate I came across him if he was bleeding in the street. I unknowingly would try to save his sorry ass with my medical knowledge. Perhaps he’d prefer I just walk away.

    P.S. – Don’t ever apologize for a ramble. <3

    Like

  59. “I think it’s changing slowly.”

    I agree, Zoe – my oldest grandson, who graduates high school this Spring, continually sends me FaceBook crap a dozen or more times per day, mostly comic book stuff, or movies he wants us to see and the like, but once in a while he will send me something religious, having my religious daughter as his mother, and I am always amazed at all of the comments under the picture/meme/article that are critical of religion, often vehemently so. As FaceBook is primarily a young person’s media, I can only conclude that the third generation below us will change the face of religion in this country. I have that hope. My only concern is that the vehemence I’ve seen in many of the remarks makes me wonder just how angry these people are with those who tried to jam it down their throats – I would rather see loss of religion as an act of reason, than an act of anger, but like the song says, “You don’t always get what you want —“

    Liked by 1 person

  60. I got to thinking Arch that it’s not so much a matter of me thinking it’s changing slowly. It is changing. When I think of the difference since the 1980’s where the church we were in wanted us to sign a petition against working on Sunday (which we refused to sign and caused a big uproar) and how they fill up a big chain of restaurants here now (on Sundays), things have changed.

    When I think how movies, dancing, cigarettes and wine were all sins then but not now, things have changed.

    When I think how the Catholics were sinners and not Christians then but now if it is to pull together against gays and abortion, things have changed. Suddenly they are Christians after all.

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  61. I recall when Kennedy was running for office, there was deep apprehension about a Catholic becoming President, as that could (in the opinion of critics) open the door to the Vatican controlling the White House. We’ve recently had a Mormon make a strong run for the Oval Office. Go figure!

    When Regan ran, there was concern that a divorced man might not make a good President – Trump has been divorced three times and no one is even mentioning it as a liability.

    Liked by 1 person

  62. ” My only concern is that the vehemence I’ve seen in many of the remarks makes me wonder just how angry these people are with those who tried to jam it down their throats – I would rather see loss of religion as an act of reason, than an act of anger,”

    Arch, who are these people you are referring to?

    Liked by 1 person

  63. I sort of took it that he’s concerned about the anger amongst those who are fed up with the religious stuff Victoria. And that he’d rather people come to loss of faith/religion through reason and not anger.

    We’ll see how he answers it.

    Having said that, it reminds me of my early writings, in the public sphere on search engines and how almost every single “believer” blamed my leaving the faith on anger, like anger was a bad thing. And naturally we were brainwashed to believe our anger was sinful. Jesus could get angry but we couldn’t.

    Liked by 1 person

  64. My “other half” and I touched on this last night when I commented that many people are concerned about Cruz becoming president because of his over-the-top religious leanings. He immediately pointed out that people felt the same way about Kennedy (and Romney) and their fears/concerns were unwarranted.

    It’s interesting how many (of us) are more concerned about a candidate’s personal life than his qualifications to be POTUS.

    Sorry Zoe, didn’t mean to get political.

    Liked by 1 person

  65. Well the religious must pander to the religious for the votes, right? It’s the human condition. We like to think there are checks and balances to curb religious enthusiasm in politics, but are there? Time will tell.

    And how many people are more concerned about one’s gender than qualifications. :D

    No apology necessary Nan. I’m actually a very politically minded person.

    Liked by 1 person

  66. “How do we promote hope when we’re seen as foreign bodies messing up humanity’s homeostasis? I find it difficult to get to the hope part when all we can do is try to keep up with the race. Maybe though, the hope comes in the details? Maybe those who read say to themselves, ‘If she can do it so can I.’ And therein lies the hope.”

    I think that when we become a more secular, educated society, people will be more open about not really buying into the BS — much like the Scandinavian/Nordic countries. I can remember the hope welling up in me after I deconverted, realizing that a lot of the ills of society are directly due to having a lack of understanding about the causes of antisocial behavior, disease, etc.

    I have hope because the more we are educated about how the environment can impact brain development, the more likely we (as a community, as a society) will provide preventative tools (and environment) necessary for societies to thrive. It’s already happening in your most secular countries. But, religion, most religions, are highly stratified, and that has been a major contributing factor to social ills. I am reminded of something Jon Stewart said:

    Religion. It’s given people hope in a world torn apart by religion.”

    Liked by 1 person

  67. “I sort of took it that he’s concerned about the anger amongst those who are fed up with the religious stuff Victoria. And that he’d rather people come to loss of faith/religion through reason and not anger.”

    I don’t know of anyone here who’s been commenting that didn’t come to lose their faith/religion through reason. In fact, I can’t think of a single deconvert I’ve run into who didn’t lose their faith/religion through reason. Can you?

    Liked by 1 person

  70. Not here but I think he’s referring to his grandson’s Facebook stuff.

    As I continue to read stories, all these years later, it is all about reason. Most of us studied our way out of it.

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  71. “Having said that, it reminds me of my early writings, in the public sphere on search engines and how almost every single “believer” blamed my leaving the faith on anger, like anger was a bad thing. And naturally we were brainwashed to believe our anger was sinful. Jesus could get angry but we couldn’t.”

    Exactly! I think the anger comes later, after the deconversion. At least that’s been my experience and what I’ve read from others. Also, you’re spot on about being brainwashed to believe that expressing anger was sinful. Yes, their was “righteous indignation”, which simply meant that genocide was justified, war was justified, murder was justified, stealing was justified, and shunning, etc., if other people/tribes didn’t believe in your god and abide by the laws of their religion.

    Liked by 1 person

  72. “Arch, who are these people you are referring to?”

    I’m confused about the question – I thought I made it clear in my comment, the people who commented on FaceBook about the religious memes my grandson sent me. Was there a part of that that wasn’t clear?
    …my oldest grandson, who graduates high school this Spring, continually sends me FaceBook crap a dozen or more times per day, mostly comic book stuff, or movies he wants us to see and the like, but once in a while he will send me something religious, having my religious daughter as his mother, and I am always amazed at all of the comments under the picture/meme/article that are critical of religion, often vehemently so.

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  73. Nan’s a stickler for staying precisely on topic, Zoe, and projects that others will most likely be as well. It’s just one more of her endearing qualities —

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  74. ” comments under the picture/meme/article that are critical of religion, often vehemently so.”

    Thanks for the clarification. So they are angry because they’ve reasoned that religion is bullshit. Do they often call religious folk “dickheads”?

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  75. Shut up, Arch! :-| So I try to be polite … you got a problem with that???? (Does that sound enough like a mobster?)

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  76. I can’t say, I really wasn’t scanning for that particular phrase. I’ll make it a point to do so next time around and get back to you on that. Now what did I do with my ‘To Do, Top Priority’ list –?

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  77. You’re no Robert De Niro, but that’s likely as close as you’ll ever get. Maybe if you threw in a ‘darn’ or a ‘heck’ —

    Liked by 1 person

  81. Zoe wrote:

    “Often, and this is just my take on it, I think some of us got up like robots, not robots, but stunned human beings, in shock and dissociated psychologically. Instead of looking or living redeemed we were looking and living condemned. All Eve’s.”

    I repressed those feelings — it was too overwhelming for me at the time, so like most women who have been conditioned to believe they are the seed of Eve, the cause of the fall of humankind, there is shame, fear, and regret for having been born female. But now, when I see men treat women inferior, and try to make them think that they were made for men, but not the other way around, I know they are the ones who are the most insecure.

    Margaret Daphne Hampson (now deceased), was a British theologian and former Christian who earned a doctorate in modern history at Oxford, and a doctorate in theology at Harvard. She stated:

    “I began to see that the very raison d’etre of the Christian myth was to support men as superior over women, that it served to legitimize how men see themselves in the world. It is a brilliant, subtle, elaborate, male cultural projection, calculated to legitimize a patriarchal world and to enable men to find their way within it. We need to see it for what it is. The circumstances of that past age are propelled into the present, influencing people, not least, at a subconscious level.”

    Liked by 1 person

  83. Neuro, what’s up with your name? This is what I got on my notification email: N℮üґ☼N☮☂℮ṧ

    Weird!

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  84. I love the comic relief that’s available at our fingertips. I had four of the five grandkids here this morning and put up with:
    – one whose Lego article wouldn’t go together the way it was supposed to (much angst and frustration)
    – two 4-yr-old girls who wanted the same purse/housecoat/toy the other one wanted — for two hours
    – spilled milk/water
    – butt-wiping
    – a ‘near miss’ in the toilet, which ended up on the floor (which hubby looked after, as I was trying to get cookies baked) and
    – a fall going upstairs (it’s a dexterous move inherited from their grandmother)

    So no wonder I find my blogging buddies to be so humorous!! :)

    Liked by 1 person

  92. Carmen, you live in the woods of Nova Scotia where the most exciting thing you see all week is a moose scratching its rear on a pine, of course you’re going to think Neuro is funny!

    Liked by 1 person

  93. Arch, how did you miss the YOU TWO. ..??

    No moose in these parts. .we have white-tailed deer and I understand the two can’t share habitat. (See? Ya learn something every day)

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  94. Oh, I didn’t, but I knew you were right about me, it was the other one I questioned.

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  96. Arch, you are something else. . loved that vid, Victoria!

    Errr. . .I think it was on the other thread. . .but it was good!

    Liked by 1 person

  99. Bwahahahahah. . .good thing I’m in the house by myself; I’d have some ‘splainin’ to do!

    Arch – just say, “I give!” :)

    Liked by 1 person

  106. Besides, I just got back from picking up some vodka – I can tolerate her now. She’s not so bad once you learn to tune her out.

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The Conversation