The Sword and Laser discussion

Since the sci-fi genre is a vast, incomprehensible ocean in size, I figured I should give a shout out to my fellow nerds for help.
I'm a huge fan of the ragtag space opera trope with shows like Firefly, Dark Matter, and Killjoys. Does anyone know any similar styled books?

Definitely The Expanse series, starting with Leviathan Wakes by James S.A. Corey. And the Old Man's War series, by John Scalzi.

Broken Worlds

I actually market my series to those exact fandoms you mentioned (Firefly, Dark Matter, and Killjoys). My series was inspired by The Expanse too. I love THE EXPANSE!

The Space Opera Renaissance - Short stories. If you don't find some authors you like in there you've never heard of or heard of but never read, I'll be surprised.

I recently finished the first Ketty Jay series, Retribution Falls, by Chris Wooding. It was not in space but has all the tropes of a ragtag, dysfunctional crew in an airship (well, there was one big main ship with two outflyers, so total three). It is a mix of steampunk and fantasy and a very easy read. I could easily imagine it being picked by Syfy and become a TV show.

Expanse has been on my tbr list for ages and it sounds like I definitely need dive into that one immediately. I'm definitely going to check out all the other mentions! Thanks guys :)

Those are some good suggestions already.
I also suggest:
- Elizabeth Moon's Vatta's War series (first book: Trading in Danger)
and
- David Weber's Honor Harrington series (first book: On Basilisk Station).
Girls toting guns in space!

Peter F. Hamilton's Confederation/Night's Dawn trilogy (starting with The Reality Dysfunction) has a cool space ship crew in the inhabitant's of the Lady Macbeth. You may need a strong stomach for some of the rest of the book.

Becky Chambers' The Long Way to a Small, Angry Planet is a much more pleasant experience

Seconding Leviathan Wakes (The Expanse), The Long Way to a Small, Angry Planet by Chambers, and the Ketty Jay series (first one is Retribution Falls) definitely has the same feel as Firefly in terms of characters rather than settings.

Of course, the closest is Cowboy Bebop, one of the few anime series I like.

The Darwin Elevator has sort of a similar feel, set in a post-apocalyptic world. I think some of Ian Banks' Culture books sort of straddle the line between Niven's Known Space and the Firefly/Cowboy Bebop type of story, particularly Consider Phlebas. (I love the name of the spaceship in that one: "Clear Air Turbulence.")

I loves me some space elevator stories Trike, but the location throws me off. Did the book address how the space elevator managed to stay up being so far off the equator?

For about the first half of With the Lightnings by David Drake, I wasn't on board. Then the second half of the book clicked with me, and ever since, I've been a huge fan of the series, mostly because it has a rag-tag but highly competent crew. Also, the two main characters are a librarian and a paunchy disgraced Naval commander, and the whole series is all just a-fightin' pirates and sleazy rich space barons and such. It's as close to old fashioned swashbuckling tales of the high seas as space opera can get.

John (Taloni) wrote: "I loves me some space elevator stories Trike, but the location throws me off. Did the book address how the space elevator managed to stay up being so far off the equator?"

Magic alien tech.

A couple more:

The Dread Empire's Fall trilogy, starting with The Praxis is top notch adventure that, for once, actually thinks about galactic empire rather than just accepting it (so much space opera I read just assumes we're all part of Admiral Lord Nelson's navy).

I've been devouring everything by Jack McDevitt lately. He has two main series, "Alex Benedict" and "The Academy." I love the Benedict books, but they are more space archaeology/mysteries than space opera, but the Academy series, starting with The Engines of God, is great...AND one of the books has a space elevator!

Revelation Space begins a mostly incredible series, though I think the last book in it (Absolution Gap) is awful. Still, great fun up until that point.

Robyn wrote: "Expanse has been on my tbr list for ages and it sounds like I definitely need dive into that one immediately. I'm definitely going to check out all the other mentions! Thanks guys :)"

Just remember that each book is about 500 pages long and there are six (almost seven) of them. They're quick reads, actually, and surprisingly good. Kind of a lot like Firefly in a lot of ways, but a bit grittier (tho not super gritty, just like... TVMA gritty).

The Risen Empire by Scott Westerfeld. Written before all of his YA stuff. Microscopic ships. Hive-minded cyborgs that worship AI constructs. Very tech-heavy. Loved it.

I agree with what many of you have said and have read several of the mentioned books.

I would like to add We Are Legion (We Are Bob) by Dennis E. Taylor. It is a fun book (great audiobook) that came out last year.

Also, if you like graphic novels, Saga, Vol. 1 is wonderful, by Brian K. Vaughan. One warning I have for this book is that it's definitely for adults.

So is space opera and "rag tag" the same thing? If you are looking for a good "rag tag" should ace adventure check out Bypass Gemini.

Matthew wrote "So is space opera and rag tag basically the same thing?"

That's an excellent question, because I they've really become lumped together in our minds. Space opera is technically just a story set in space but the most popular renditions in today's culture do tend to feature a thrown together group of misfits- e.g. Star Wars.

Matthew wrote: "So is space opera and "rag tag" the same thing? If you are looking for a good "rag tag" should ace adventure check out Bypass Gemini."

Seconded for Bypass Gemini and the rest of that series! So.Much.Fun!

Robyn wrote: "Matthew wrote "So is space opera and rag tag basically the same thing?"

That's an excellent question, because I they've really become lumped together in our minds. Space opera is technically just ..."
rag tag stuff isn't close to the totality of space opera, not are they even the best (some are). Banks' Culture series, Neal Asher's Polity novels.... two series that are definitely space opera in the general sense of being set in interstellar space but nothing rag tag about them.

I loved Firefly too, but the fetishization of it is a little disturbing. There are some really good works in that mold The Long Way to a Small, Angry Planet comes to mind, but people miss a lot when they conflate Firefly style stories with space opera.

Obvious, the silver age stuff - Heinlein, etc - is a source of space opera as are Banks and Asher. For something kind of in the ragtag mold, I ran across Stephen Renneberg's stuff lately. You kind of want to start with a book that isn't a space opera but is a first contact story, The Mothership for some background but the next two in the series are pretty straightforward space opera The Antaran Codex and In Earth's Service. One thing I like here is that humans aren't the dominant, kick ass, best species in the galaxy, we're pretty low on the totem pole.

Oh, O, you stepped on the land mine. If there is one thing this group is very good at (myself included), it's getting off topic in threads to discus the minutiae of sub genre classification.

Hahah... true John. Im not trying to subdivide so much as saying that ragtag stuff like Firefly is a subset of a larger Space Opera category. I'm not even touching whether all SF in space is Space Opera....

I'm always so confused about what space opera even is. I used to be of the opinion that I liked space opera, but the space opera group never read anything i wanted to read. Came to the conclusion that I don't actually like space opera, i just like Banks.

Becky Chambers is the closest i've read to Firefly in book form, both in positive and negative aspects. The Expanse 2nd closest, but i thought it was poor.

As I see it, Space Opera has two basic requirements: 1) space as the primary setting and 2) an epic scope. (Or at least the implication of wide-ranging impact due to the actions of the protagonists.)

Generally that translates to a large-scale war, but it doesn't have to. As long as the story has a massive impact on the world, it can focus on a fairly small group of people, but their actions have to have far-reaching consequences.

Two examples that I've used recently come from Star Trek. There's an episode in the original series called "Balance of Terror" where the Enterprise first encounters Romulans. It's a little too small and contained to be a full-fledged space opera, owing its roots more to WWII submarine movies. Then there's Wrath of Khan, which is just about as small as I would go and still call it Space Opera. In the latter instance, they are preventing a huge catastrophe and they visit numerous locations. For me, that's the dividing line between a space action film and a true Space Opera.

Serenity is definitely in the latter camp, with an almost one-for-one matchup with Wrath of Khan in terms of characters, locations and outcome. But while Firefly is definitely "ragtag", Star Trek certainly isn't.

I wonder if any of the writers of "ragtag" SF like Firefly were influenced by the RPG game Traveller? As a long time player I can see that it would be perfect source material.

AndrewP wrote: "I wonder if any of the writers of "ragtag" SF like Firefly were influenced by the RPG game Traveller? As a long time player I can see that it would be perfect source material."

Someone sure gives a long thought-out explanation of why they think Whedon did: http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questi...

David wrote: "AndrewP wrote: "I wonder if any of the writers of "ragtag" SF like Firefly were influenced by the RPG game Traveller? As a long time player I can see that it would be perfect source material."

Som..."

Dismisses SpaceMaster WAY too quickly.

A long Way to a Small Angry planet is a fine start. I would add a few.
rag-tag high art. Pushing Ice, Alastair Reynolds
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/8...
Some hi-jinks and yucks here. Bypass Gemini, Joseph Lallo
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1...
A bit like Long way, some romance. Earthrise, M.C.A. Hogarth
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1...

I had forgotten Pushing Ice. I really liked that one, and wished Alastair had continued developing stories in that world. While the writing style is similar I liked the charcters and world building more then most of the Revelation Space series books.

So many different reactions to Pushing Ice. I found the first half to be fairly decent and I do love a time dilation story. Then then ending seemed like a straight rip of Olaf Stapledon's work, with the(view spoiler)[ VAST UNKNOWABLE UNKNOWN! I'd seen enough of that with the follow-on Rama books and found it doubly derivative. (hide spoiler)]

But more of the House of Suns would be definitely welcome....yet another time dilation / bussard ramjet story of the variety Niven made popular.

I apologize for what will hopefully be a quick hijack. If it becomes more then that I'll move it to a new thread.

John (Taloni), while I've heard of Olaf Stapledon, I've never read any of his work. After reading his biography on Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olaf_St... , He looks like an author I'd enjoy. Would you recommend Star Maker as a place to start, or some other work instead?

John (Nevets) wrote: "Would you recommend Star Maker as a place to start, or some other work instead?"

I've been meaning to read some Stapledon. Either Star Maker, or Last and First Men. Simply because of the Arthur C. Clarke quote- "No book before or since has ever had such an impact upon my imagination," referring to the latter.

To cap the threadjack: Star Maker is Stapledon's weirdest and best work. It's free association on a massive scale of time and space. Last Men In London has more of a narrative structure, but is confined to the author's time period. Last and First Men can be depressing where Star Maker has downbeat elements but is ultimately inspiring. I would definitely recommend Star Maker first. Then, if you have some hankering for more old-style SF, pick up Odd John.

Stapledon is one of the pillars of SF. It is good to read him, but keep in mind that writing styles have changed. By modern standards his work may seem slow. Certainly Star Maker has little in the way of plot. It's more a testimonial following the evolution of the Universe. It makes up for the lack of plot by its fantastic visionary scope.

John (Taloni) wrote: "To cap the threadjack: Star Maker is Stapledon's weirdest and best work. It's free association on a massive scale of time and space. Last Men In London has more of a narrative structure, but is con..."

And to recap the cap (sorry John): Since Olaf Stapledon died in 1950, the bulk of his work is in the public domain in many countries. Depending on your own local laws, you could legally get much of his work for free here:
https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/s/stap...

Robyn wrote: "Since the sci-fi genre is a vast, incomprehensible ocean in size, I figured I should give a shout out to my fellow nerds for help.
I'm a huge fan of the ragtag space opera trope with shows like Fi..."

Just occurred to me that Karl Gallagher's Torchship pretty much fits the bill.

How come no-one's mentioned The Vorkosigan Saga by Lois McMaster Bujold???

It's got about 16-17 books so far, as well as a few novellas, spanning over decades, with mercenaries, galactic wars, and more!

It's best to either start with Shards of Honor, which concerns the main character's (Miles Vorkosigan) parents and origin, or The Warrior's Apprentice, which is the first book published in the series.

Pepper wrote: "How come no-one's mentioned The Vorkosigan Saga by Lois McMaster Bujold???"

We were saving it for you. Took your sweet time getting here, I must say.

I'll throw C.J. Cherryh into the mix -- specifically, Merchanter's Luck and The Pride of Chanur and its sequels.

As for Stapledon, yeah, he's not easy going, but every single page of Star Maker has at least one, often more than one, off-handed reference that could be the basis for an entire novel.