I Conversation with Joseph Beuys

What is art?

My objects are to be seen as stimulants for the the natural sciences, and experienced certain
transformation of the idea of sculpture, or of art in things about the prevailing scientific paradigm,
general. They should provoke thoughts about what which made me realize that an answer would
sculpture can be and how the concept of sculpting not be found here. In questioning the value of
can be extended to the invisible materials used by this kind of research, or alternatively, as a
everyone: means of exploring the overall field of existing
forces — including life forces, the forces of the
Thinking Forms - how we mould our thoughts or mind, that is of the soul, psyche-spirit and their
Spoken Forms - how we shape our thoughts into higher forms — I was compelled to consider, on
words or purely experimental grounds, whether I should
SOCIAL SCULPTURE how we mould and shape explore the sphere of art, that has manifested
the world in which we live: through time as a form of cultural activity.
Sculpture as an However, I already had a sense that this fun¬
evolutionary process; damental question would remain unresolved
everyone an artist. there too. And then, during my studies at the
academy, I found that this question about the
That is why the nature of my sculpture is not fixed impetus and source of art, the need for the
and finished. Processes continue in most of them: world to develop and evolve through art, did
chemical reactions, fermentations, colour changes, indeed remain unresolved. I found that art had
decay, drying up. Everything is in a state of undergone a kind of parallel development with
change. science, an academicism, with a long tradition
going back to the Renaissance, and that people
no longer knew exacdy what they were trying to
What forces give rise to art? do. On die one hand there were teachers who,
as I saw it, approached the problem as an
Beuys: All my life I have returned to this same anatomist or surgeon would in an operating
question time and again: What is the need — theatre: approaching things in a mimetic way,
that is, what is the truly objective constellation based entirely on the observation of what is
of forces working in us and the world - that there before you, reproducing it from this same
justifies the creation of something like art? This perspective, on paper or in spatial form, in
question has certainly had a central place in my other words, copying. On the other hand, there
life, and has led me to distance myself from my were those teachers who had a radical stylistic
initial involvement in the scientific field. Before approach of their own. However, the source
I made this shift, provoked by this question, and impetus of their intentions was very hard to
this search for answers, I began my studies in discern. They demonstrated a stylistic

9
What is Art?

approach that, if you like, derives from ‘abstract such forces and therefore the energy question

art’ - which is a kind of popular concept - that too, including technological energy — which is

asserts that abstract form can also be art. That so pressing and relevant nowadays... if we

both these positions obviously had something want to deal with this question we also have to

to do with this question was clear. In this sense, pose it as an overall energy question. So, we

I had teachers whom one could truly call artists. need to take stock, at the outset, make an
However, the thing that was missing was that inventory of all the energies before us, which
all these fundamental questions, that is, the correspond to what is actually there. Nowadays
fundamental research into art and its function, people very often overlook the fact that human
could not be answered at the academy. And this beings have a quite different kind of energy
increased my resolve to pursue the matter than they had 200 years ago, or 500 or 1000
myself. For now, I’ll just say this. And I have years ago; that today the energies of freedom
been pursuing it ever since, though I’m not are emerging in us, and that this is exacdy the
pretending that I haven’t gone some way point where one can speak of art — that this is,
towards subverting and shaking things up a so to speak, a kind of science of freedom. Once
little in this field. However, one thing in parti¬ the bottom line in our stocktaking of the world
cular seems clear to me: if this question does has been found then everything must orientate
not become the central focus of such research, itself toward this new energy situation. This
and is not resolved in a truly radical way that includes recognition of the fact that a new
actually sees art as the starting point for pro¬ manifestation of energy is in the world, repre¬
ducing anything at all, in every field of work, sented by the human being; and that this is also
then any thought of further development is just something new in human beings — leaving
a waste of time. This idea — that it is from art aside for the time being the extent to which it
that all work ensues — needs to be borne in has spiritual links to other networks of forces,
mind, if we want to reshape and re-form individualized in the world. And although this
society, because it will also have a bearing on is a given, it is still something that must actually
economic questions and issues to do with legal be perceived, as well as practised, taught and
and human rights. I am saying ‘will’, for it has investigated. So, first of all, we have art as the
become clear to me in the meantime, and is science of freedom, and as a consequence of
increasingly understood, that this is a viable this, we also have art as primary production or
way of compensating for the errors in the phi¬ as the original, underlying production for
losophy or sociology of the last century — for everything else. Now this concept is apparendy
instance by balancing the mistaken tendencies too lofty for many people; many object that not
in Marx with something that, extending beyond everyone can be an artist. But that’s precisely
his correct analysis, can lead to a truly holistic the point: to make the concept into one that
development of the world. once more describes the essence of being
So we’re right in the midst of this question human, the human being as the expression of
about the necessity of art, which, without freedom, embodying, carrying forward and
doubt, is also a question of freedom. For if we further evolving the world’s evolutionary
want to work at these things, these problems impulse. So what we have here is an anthro¬
which humanity has: the potential inherent in pological concept rather than the traditional,
10
 Conversation with Joseph Beuys

middle-class concept of art, as it currently thing has emerged from me, but does it have
exists. This gives rise to difficulties in discus¬ any quality in itself? This, of course, points to
sion, when one has always to speak on two the fact that I can’t simply say art is a process
levels: talking on the one hand about what has that somehow just comes out of me, like
come down to us from the past, what our something vomited up, for what emerges can of
forefathers developed, which now stands in our course be quite false. So it is not enough for
way today as something no longer relevant something to emerge out of us any old how
unless we go beyond it; and on the other hand simply by letting something out of us; and nor
having to project into the future in a pre¬ will what comes out necessarily be the right
liminary, anticipatory way. This is often a dif¬ thing. That’s where the difficulty begins: for in
ficulty — having to discuss both at once, in the each of us there are forces that on occasion —
same way that, you can say, the new develops in how shall I put it, when we simply allow a
the womb of the old. process to unfold and do nothing more — that
I’m sure we’ll come to speak about more emerge like a psychograph of pathology, for
specific things later on, but I have to begin by instance. That can happen. In fact, that’s often
casting my net wide. the case, at least in my experience. So this was
your starting point: you said, or you were con¬
Surely the problem with the anticipatory approach cerned that if, in an anticipatory way, one puts
is — if I have understood you correctly - that we forward a particular set of ideas, that this would
shouldn’t be trying to develop definite ideas about be detrimental to art. That’s how I experienced
what ought to be done, what ought to be achieved, what you said. You saw in this a predetermined
but rather that we allow something to emerge out conception. You probably also thought that
of the energies that are in human beings. And if, there would be a kind of intellectual planning
despite this, we do still have to give some direction process before anything could arise; before
to what we do - without just implementing an anything could form artistically, or draw on all
ideology - then this is one of the tasks that, ulti¬ the potential forces at hand. That’s more or less
mately, only art can deal with, since through art how I understood the question.
one can unite such contradictions. How do you see
something like this happening; how do you Yes, I meant something in between; between ‘sim¬
approach something like this, in specific terms? ply doing’ and ‘having an ideology’, which would, I
Beuys: Well, first of all I need to understand believe, actually endanger the project.
what you mean; and if 1 answer this question I Beuys: Yes, we haven’t yet spoken about ideol¬
can obviously only answer it out of my own ogy-
experience, and in terms of what I think about
this. By doing so I am saying how things appear No, you haven’t mentioned it, but if one...
to me. For me, it cannot simply be a matter of Beuys: For instance, ideology would be...
allowing something to emerge from oneself.
That is not what it’s about: simply allowing .. .it easily becomes contradictory, and how does
something to come out. This is obviously one one resolve this... given that you can’t just ‘let it
process, but the process itself must be looked happen’? Because, on the other hand, you clearly
at, and in such a way that I say: Good, some¬ know that what you do also has a direction -

11
What is Art?

although I’m not suggesting here that what you any old how - there I completely agree with you -
said before was ideology. nor can one plan it precisely either. For there is
also a danger in the other direction, that it will be
much too pre-planned, pre-formed. Nevertheless
Practice and realization one must use this activity in a certain way, give it
Beuys: But first we need to talk about the nature some direction. And this interests me. It’s a general
of ideology. What you just said, this fear that problem: how do you delineate the boundaries?
thinking about these things, thinking really Beuys: Now I’ve got it, now the question is more
critically about them, could be ideology, is clearly delineated. Basically it can only be
something I don’t see in the same way. I actually answered by saying that it cannot be answered
see ideology in what you said: that simply doing at all in an abstract way that is taken out of the
without such reflection is much healthier than, flow of time. Thus, put simply or naively: if this
let’s say, planning something, reflecting on it, in wasn’t a thread running through my whole life,
contrast to simple, playful activity that has its then this work to shape criteria or ideas that
own dynamic. This ideology does indeed exist can guide us in such matters wouldn’t succeed.
in our times and is widespread: that one simply If I think I can decide today that this is going to
gets people to do things and says that the less happen in the next hour, that we will make the
influence one has on it the more will emerge in complex connection between formative ideas
the process; and then one simply leaves it at that lead us in some direction, and, let us say,
that. That is ideology. This means that one what emerges from the human being, from
assumes that something worthwhile will creative constellations of forces, this won’t
emerge from the whole gamut of unsorted and work. In other words, I have to keep preparing
impure stuff that is part of our inner creative myself throughout my life, conducting myself
resources. But this is not necessarily so if our in such a way that no single moment is not
inner resources are no longer sound; if, in other given over to this preparation. Whether I’m
words, the inner psychological forces are dis¬ gardening, or talking to people, whether I’m in
turbed then what comes out may be of a purely the midst of traffic or reading a book, whether
instinctual nature. And if one then builds an I’m teaching, or engaged in whichever field of
ideology of making, on top of something that is work or activity I’m at home in, I must always
purely instinctual, then one has an ideology in have the presence of mind, the overview, the
the field of creativity. For ideologies are not just wider perspective, to perceive the overall con¬
ideas, but misuse ideas in order to glorify text and set of forces. In other words, I must
instinctual urges by means of a thought appa¬ always be preparing and planning; and then,
ratus. They simply embellish and veil things, as when it comes to a specifically artistic act, when
if certain things were worthy of discussion at I have to decorate a room or lay a table, or even
all. So we have to pursue things much more perhaps paint a picture or create architecture —
rigorously. And now back to your question: you then I’ll have the necessary resources. I’ll have
were asking whether 1 plan things in advance? the principles. Then something will emerge
from me that is already substantially better than
I am concerned with the contradiction implicit in if this preparatory work had not taken place.
the fact that one cannot simply make something That is simply practice, to start with. But I must
12
 Conversation with Joseph Beuys

then, of course, also look at what has emerged tion, what fundamental considerations or, let
from me: in the architect’s case the draft plan is us say, intuitions, are embedded in the materi¬
perhaps the starting point, in the painter’s case als; why it had to be these, in particular, and not
it can of course be the whole image straight others. I would just like to leave it open like
away. I have to look at it and see how it works. that: but this doesn’t mean that you can’t aim
So I have to bring a further monitoring organ to for perfection — that one shouldn’t value rigour
bear on it. But I also have to introduce it to and direction; that one mustn’t avoid being
other people, in fact, one must immediately imprecise or looking through ideological spec¬
enter into dialogue with others and listen to tacles.
their arguments, for I cannot claim — ever — that
what I have drawn out of myself is something It seems to me that this approach you speak of also
objective and right from all perspectives. No has two directions. On the one hand what one
one can claim that. One can only say that what I seeks in terms of knowledge will always lead to
have drawn out,of myself here is the result of something general, for the thread passing through
my work, and I invite further arguments, for I all activities is, you might say, a search for that
am, after all, developing. I cannot say that which unifies, for the One, if you look at it in
anyone has to believe in what I have done, quite purely philosophical terms. Whereas the artistic
the contrary: everything that people place out process, in practice, also means that more or less
there — and this should also be how it is with tangible ideas are individualized when I engage
the new concept of culture — should exist in the with them artistically. In this process of indivi¬
world as a question looking to be augmented, dualization there is, in fact, not only a cognitive
improved, enhanced. This is the kind of faith process at work but a drawing of the idea into
one can have in art; one can say that it is on the reality so that phenomena come into being neither
path towards something; because, in keeping through natural or chance occurrences, nor do they
with the principles of life — let me just say for appear as do ideas and concepts. Rather, they
once very generally — it certainly cannot be manifest through materials or, let’s say, combi¬
about something that has already been per¬ nations of marks, or something similar. So, in art
fected. In certain circumstances such pre¬ we have, on the one hand, the general and on the
determined views of how things should be other, the most radical subjectivity, through the
could even be the death of art. It is something fact that only one person can create it.
living, sometimes only an initial impulse. But Beuys: Yes, I can accept that, although there are
even such a fragmentary impulse can have a art forms that one cannot create on one’s own,
certain evolutionary value. Art can even have a that one can only create in collaboration with
value as a kind of surrogate. Just think what one others. I can accept this if I may just illustrate it
can do with a surrogate in our contemporary by saying that you can have an idea, an idea
psychological situation. I have often used such about art that derives its principles from what
methods, where I knew that I was using a you call the One, which you can ultimately also
material in a way that would provoke, would express as a formula. However, as worker or
stimulate and provoke discussion. But in most producer — leaving aside the concept of the
cases I managed to go beyond this kind of artist altogether for a moment, for it’s already
surrogate character to discover what provoca¬ clear, given our point of departure, that this has

13
What is Art?

to do with art — as producer, speaking in ideal bigger idea. After all, isn’t the olive leaf also
terms, one would have to do with both of these knowledge in pictorial form?
things: which includes finding a formula that,
speaking quite generally, can solve world So what is happening in those instances where
problems. This means approaching in a way materials - I’m thinking of wax or fat for instance
comparable to Einstein’s equation, for instance, - are linked with some living being, such as the
which has revolutionized many things in the being of the bee: you have used it, but what pre¬
physical arena; in other words, finding a cedes this? There is surely first a cognitive
formula in the traditional physical domain that, engagement and unpacking of what occurs in a
in relation to human beings and their future beehive. As individuals we somehow can’t enter
evolution, functions a great deal better than into this group of bees, but nevertheless we have
Einstein’s, revolutionizing everything in that their products. We see the products honey and
domain. By this I mean that such a formula wax. And you also use them.
would no longer necessarily be the result of Beuys: Well, first of all I would dispute that
thinking, as in classical philosophy, but would people are incapable of entering into the bee.
reflect the need for something that is attainable
only through intuition, imagination and such No, I’m not saying that, but into the image of bees
higher forms of thought. In contrast to this, one as a group being.
can express an idea by painting a simple Beuys: Yes, I dispute that too, for if you enter
watercolour of an olive leaf. Of course one into the bee it is, I think, easier to enter into the
cannot represent such an idea in pictorial form; whole group being. That’s particularly difficult
but by getting close to such an idea, let us say, [laughs] for that is already an atom of the
the olive leaf or sunbeam, or a small bit of totality. But that’s precisely my intention, to
gravel on the path appear in a quite different develop this capacity, so that art, whether
light. So I would never relinquish the desire to painting or sculpture, does not remain some¬
portray such simple things just because I thing merely retinal. After all, we live in a cul¬
supposedly have a grand idea. On the contrary, ture that regards art in formal terms and
the great ideas in art often manifest in very repeatedly says that the fine arts are retinal, are
humble form, through a small area of colour, or just grasped by the eye. The eye is a very
through a green tone around a certain small important sense organ, one of the most impor¬
form, or for instance through such an olive leaf. tant especially for colours. But if that is all that’s
This is the bigger context, in the scheme of happening then, in my view, no interesting
which all possible forms exist. But we must, I painting can come about, it will just decline into
believe, see just how radical this is: that art, in surface form. So I have explored and engaged
and for itself, has this tangible quality - which, with substances, my aim being this funda¬
as you said, is only realized through its specific mental engagement with substance, as the
instances. That it is something different from substance is, of course, also the soul process.
the product of cognitive knowledge. Never¬ When it comes to bees a vital, living process is
theless, I would still say it’s a process of cog¬ at work, in which processes of warmth and heat
nition, if one is to be at all clear about the are involved. Here one witnesses a constellation
relationship between the olive leaf and the of forces that has nothing to do with the retinal.
14
 Conversation with Joseph Beuys

3. Joseph Beuys:
‘DasBild’ 7
[‘The Image’], 1947

15
What is Art?

The fact is that warmth is not perceived through certainly do not claim that any lasting value
the eye, or if it is then, at most, by a circuitous attaches to these experiments that I have con¬
route. When one says a colour is warm, I ducted. That cannot be my concern. My con¬
experience it as warm through the eye. So, what cern can only be whether one can instigate this
I have tried to do is to open up a discussion that kind of process, this movement; in other words,
links the whole nature of substance, in the whether one can bring people to and into this
sense of an holistic perception of the chemical, kind of movement, in the culture that holds and
to painting for example, or to sculpture or has held sway, and has numbed them into
drawing: so that one has to enter into the forces inaction; whether things can be freed up and
in these substances. Once immersed in them, released, so that people accomplish this toge¬
one can then, as it were, explore them as sym¬ ther. That is where my interest lies, in fact;
bol or pointer or tool; as orientation points, or again it’s a therapeutic interest you might say, a
stimulants or as therapy, as medicine, or medical, chemical, therapeutic interest in
everything else that might be possible. When I making something happen, that extends right
engage with the fundamental questions con¬ into political action — which is not really poli¬
cerning substance, which naturally includes tical since the concept of politics is no longer
both the retinal and questions of form — this appropriate. Without this as the background I
shows that this artistic process is possible in all wouldn’t want to do what I do; that is, if,
professions; that this process is possible in without this background, I had to conduct an
every field of work, and can be seen in con¬ election campaign as I’m doing at present, I
junction with the issue of human work. That is wouldn’t conduct it. But since I have this
what I have tried to do — to say something background and believe I can make a con¬
through substance: substances which, layer by tribution, I can conduct this campaign and can
layer, extend into a supersensible dimension, of course also integrate mundane political
and are no longer present as physical sub¬ concepts into this underlying idea.
stances. Thus the link with spiritual substance
is also part of the substance discussion. And not For me the question was actually more to do with
only what can be put on the scales and weighed the phenomenon: in other words, if we stay with
is substance. This discussion also encompasses the bee for a moment, warmth processes are of
its sacramental character, right through to the course connected with wax. This is actually
last stage of substance where it has condensed, apparent to anyone involved with the bee, like the
for instance in wax, but where, in this con¬ beekeeper... he will perceive this, these warmth
densed form, one can make the process acces¬ processes, just through his feeling.
sible by arranging the material in particular Beuys: But not necessarily...
ways or doing certain trials and experiments
with it. 1 don’t go any further than that and say Beehives are warm after all.
that I’ve achieved anything. I say only that I Beuys: Yes, they’re warm of course, and a stove
have done certain experiments and explora¬ plate is warm too. If he sits on that he’ll jump off
tions that have stimulated discussion. They pretty quick, the beekeeper, when it gets too hot
were, in fact, only successful once they pro¬ for him. It is remarkable that this sense is no
voked discussion. Further than this, I don’t go. I longer there, amongst beekeepers in particular.
16
 Conversation with Joseph Beuys

I wrote an article on something like this in a bee experienced perhaps already as a child — you
journal — some beekeepers were interested and always have to question how things actually
said: yes, we also sense these things. But most were. Did I know all this once myself, have I just
beekeepers don’t understand things like this. forgotten it again? Because the best way to
Nowadays all professions have degenerated. practise it, is not so much by resorting to feel¬
Just as the blacksmith no longer has a real sense ing, but by simply thinking correctly. That, in
of the fire element, which cannot be totally my view, is the best way to explore and engage
divorced from the fact that this sense is with the ‘Philosophy of Freedom’.1
increasingly disappearing, and because every¬
thing is now being done with welding tools etc. I wasn’t referring now to methodology.
In the same w'ay the beekeeper today often no Beuys [laughs]: Yes, in fact it becomes clear that
longer has a sense for w hat I mean by warmth. the will, as warmth impulse, is necessary for
That there is warmth in there and that the bees independent thinking. One is involved in a
should not freeze to death is something he sculptural process here, about which one can
obviously knows. But he can no longer make a righdy say: thinking is practically a sculptural
meaningful connection between this and the process. It can also be understood as a truly
human being. That’s why it’s so important to creative achievement, engendered by the
consider all jobs and professions in the light of human being, by the individual himself, and
the overall forces involved and the con¬ not a process indoctrinated by some authority
temporary energy issues; because this alone or other. That’s very important. From this, as I
will enable the right kind of connection see it, one learns to recognize a great deal about
between the human being and cosmos to come sculptural situations and about warmth in the
about. For it is not only about understanding creative realm; in the principle of evolution.
the whole context of the energy question; it is Thinking in the free individual is a reoccur¬
much, much bigger than this. Yes, far greater rence of the evolutionary principle in existence
than anything physics or materialism teaches from the beginning of time. The human being
us. himself becomes creator of the world and
experiences how he can continue creation. This
What you have just said about warmth surely also now also becomes his responsibility, and all the
belongs to our preparatory activities. I have just facts and realities connected with this become
been thinking how to go about this, this prepara¬ visible. And then one is actually inside it all.
tion: being continually able, in all that you do, to Feeling doesn’t achieve anything here.
make yourself inwardly ready. When you then
actually create an artwork something worthwhile I wasn’t referring to feeling either, but more to
can come of it, can be seen in it. Perhaps this is one sense perception.
exercise that one should keep doing, so that one Beuys: Nor does sense perception, direcdy. At
can really sense what warmth is, and also what least, 1 think one can say that. Without first

light really is, and such things. engendering it in yourself, as self-motivated

Beuys: Yes, of course. All that is important. But activity, sense perception alone will not give it

if one hasn’t had this source of warmth, how to you, for sense perception, above all, retinal

can I put it, given to one at any early stage, perception, through the eye, is cool and dis-

17
What is Art?

tanced. You have to add something to it, in experiences, where I had an inkling of some¬
other words you have to initiate something with thing wholly different. For this does not just
the eye so that it can even begin to grasp differ in terms of form, though that’s also the
warmth processes. If one leaves the eye as it is, case, but above all is very different as far as its
it will, let’s say from the contemporary cultural inner impulses are concerned. For instance, the
perspective, tend rather to cool down and crystal is very different in this sense from bone
differentiate things, divide and analyse them, formations, so that I am compelled to suspect
like a camera, separating things out from each the presence of quite different interrelation¬
other in a crystalline way. That is particularly ships of forces. 1 cannot demonstrate simply
the case with the eye. Hearing is somewhat how I shift my attention to this. Of course there
different. That’s why it’s important to hear is another aspect to this. It can’t just be like this
images and sculptures with the ear as well. For in my case! For if it’s like this with me, I can
this, one has to set in motion a much more logically deduce from this that it isn’t so only in
inward, deep-seated machinery, which creates my case. If I’m logical, I have to say: if this
this warmth, this evolutionary warmth, which question surfaces in me, it must also, by rights,
enables us to become beings capable of carry¬ surface in others. For I also recognize myself as
ing evolution forward — in my view this is a person among other people; I also experience
important. things, and I also had my teachers at school
who thought a great deal about all sorts of
Perhaps we could start moving towards a more things. I learned a great deal from my teachers,
concrete description of how you do this when you though perhaps they didn’t necessarily drive
look at a honeycomb, or when you consider me in this particular direction. But isn’t it sim¬
warmth in relation to bees; and how you go about ply the case that when I see what is in my
perceiving this. It’s actually difficult, if one only environment, I have to ask myself what forces
sees something like this in a retinal way, as you have given rise to this, within history, let us say
say, to get beyond this. Of course one has one’s — history in its widest sense, as evolution of the
feelings, one thinks and knows things; but I would human being and the world. However, I believe
be glad if you would describe this specifically, so one shouldn’t see this as distinct and separate
that we could somehow grasp how it’s done, or how either, but rather as embedded in the whole
you do it, or what you draw on in yourself. I have a context. I can’t tell you in a step by step way
feeling that you have different organs, and even, how I do this, as I’m not doing it this way right
that the human being actually has different organs now; it is not something that happens when I
for absorbing something into himself-for when I confront things at a particular moment in time,
perceive something I do actually take it into myself. because it has actually been an engagement and
You clearly mean something holistic here... a meeting with things throughout my life.
Beuys: Yes, we’re back with the difficulty of Whatever I do, I try out something and observe
extracting something focused out of a general the experiment. Now too I am experimenting,
daily exercise with phenomena. But if, for attempting to express myself about this ques¬
instance, one looks to see what constellation of tion. Today the attempt might fail. Next week, it
forces is present, then for me this is something I may succeed better. So I attempt to move
have to pursue back into my childhood towards this now. But above all one must avoid
18
 Conversation with Joseph Beuys

thinking that what I am describing is something human being and cosmos in general terms but:
special. It isn’t, it’s a quite normal situation; in How do I handle this right now?
fact, it’s just as it should be. It is the most run-of- Beuys: It starts where you say, for instance, that
the-mill thing that I’m speaking about. I’m not you’re standing with your feet on the ground. If
talking about an exceptional situation, and you walk consciously, rather than in an habi¬
above all I want to avoid people thinking that tual way, and as you walk concentrate on how
I’m presenting myself here as someone who is you stand and walk on the ground; if you then
different from others; what I’m talking about is perceive this and enact it consciously, you’ll
the reality of force constellations in the broad¬ already experience warmth. This is an example
est sense. of how we can experience this kind of warmth;
which rises up through the action of the will,
Yes, but that isn’t the problem at all. It is more and is what enables us to walk upright, to go
that if I now think: Over there is a honeycomb upright on the earth. If I stop doing this in an
that I will first just try to find out about... I take habitual way and, let’s say, live with full
hold of it and feel that it’s roughly similar to my awareness, into my skeleton, of how this
skin, for instance. Or I can also see it in connec¬ warmth works right into the head, into the
tion with warmth. Then on the other hand there’s fingertips, how it works in a concentrated way
its shape. This is very abstract, and actually has into my perceiving and thinking, then, let’s say
little to do with the fat that in fact, one can say, for now, one engages in an exercise where one
has no tendency to form. At least one does not see experiences this aspect of warmth. All at once
the form inherent in it. What I mean is that one you experience yourself as touched by this
finds points of departure. How does one proceed warmth. Now you also have a measure of
now? You see, I’ve been preoccupied with your whether you are feverish or too cold. You get a
things for a long while now, and I think I’ve feeling for this warmth: now you can also get in
found a way into them, that is, how one repeat¬ touch with your state of health. Yes, that’s all
edly re-establishes a relationship to things - to connected with this. I can make sense of it
warmth, for instance. How do I experience myself, I don’t necessarily have to go to the
warmth? I can definitely experience warmth in a doctor. Of course it’s advisable to go to the
supersensible way, in sympathy, in loving atten¬ doctor if I can’t solve the problem; but that’s
tion, for instance. where it begins, and I can practise this in the
Beuys: Yes, but that’s just what I mean. simplest things. There is hardly any activity, is
there, which is accomplished outside of this
Yes, so now I would be glad to have a few wholly question? For instance when I cook a meal.
specific, really specific clues or aids, not so gen¬ When I cook a meal there’s the question first of
eralized, about human and world evolution, or the all of whether I should cook at all, or how long
human being and the cosmos. Of course I also live the food should cook for etc., and how it should
in the cosmos, I feel myself to be a part of it, but be cooked. These are all warmth processes. We
I’m alive now, I have legs, I have my feet on the handle warmth on a daily basis, we ourselves
ground — well, maybe not completely, but to some are warmth beings, we live as an upright,
extent. And this is where the whole, absolutely walking, warmth entity; and when this is dis¬
concrete problem starts for me, not with the turbed we, quite simply, become ill. So that is

19
What is Art?

something for which I can only give indications, speak about all this for days on end, about the
put images before you, tease out trains of diverse possibilities which daily life offers
thought; but of course I can also say how I human beings. But the important thing is to let
myself would do something like this. For this become a reality in oneself.
instance walking: one must first experiment A true experience of things means: giving life
with this, but also engage in a more general way meaning, quite simply noticing how important
with bigger manifestations of warmth. If a life is, that you are alive, and not overlooking
house burns down you’ll quickly notice what the fact that life may be sad, may be a burden
kind of a warmth process is happening. And and might not amount to much; let’s say, get¬
you can also engage with heat and cold when ting rid of all these forms of despondency to
there is no particular wider significance, let’s which people are often subject, by making
say by trying it out at the stove. You can observe something new of oneself. And in making
something, a candle, or strike a match and something new of oneself one is obviously
observe the processes that take place, and how, enabling something new to happen with regard
at the end of it all, a blackened end remains. to other human beings too. But if you just do
Then you can say: What is this blackened end this by and for yourself, you’ll see that there’s
that we’re left with? And is its blackness all that no warmth process involved. If you bring about
there is? What is this, here, this black end? something in yourself it only becomes a
Then you might say: Yes, I learned something warmth process once you involve others, and
about carbon at school. Usually such things hear from other people about what they do. But
went in one ear and came out the other since this doesn’t necessarily have to be a ‘warmth
our teachers may not really have got anything work’. No, this is not a must. Rather one has to
about the significance of carbon across to us. In let others have the complete freedom to express
other words we have to take a more careful what they draw out of themselves. It could be
interest in the store of things with which we ice-cold, but this is something that I just have to
live, and in the midst of which we live. That’s a deal with. I can’t say: Since you are such an ice-
suggestion 1 can give, and one that also says cold fish, and I see things differently, I will
something about how I have done this. I have simply ignore your existence and draw a clear
taken an intense interest in the substances in dividing line. Absolutely not. Instead I have to
my environment, but of course also in all dif¬ enter right into the midst of this, for only here
ferent conditions, in the state of death, in the do you have a perfect warmth issue, only then
corpse, in the living state. I have given a lot of do things start to be interesting. The rest is only
attention to a great number of plants and how preparatory work. That’s the field of social
their life manifests in diverse forms. The place sculpture as a new ‘machine’, one could say —
where a plant grows, its central axis or function as an energy carrier.
by which it lifts itself into the upright position, It is obviously difficult to have such a con¬
how the plant stands, orientates itself; or how a versation without any actual examples of what
living creature, an animal, is horizontal; or the may already have been tried out. As a teacher in
point at which a living being stands upright, a school, for instance, one learns from
becomes a human being — I have simply taken conversations with others who have done
an interest in such things. Certainly, we could something, who have written something, or
20
 Conversation with Joseph Beuys

painted something, or made something in clay, a state of more or less permanent practice, in
or anything else. And when you have something which you de-automate life, simplify it, do prop¬
before you, to respond to, you can approach the erly what you otherwise only do out of habit; so
discussion in a much more precise way. that it is already something which acquires this
Answering questions without something in continual character of practice, which then also
front of you, without something that someone enriches life immeasurably — not only through
has attempted, can never be convincing. There enjoying oneself, but simply because one experi¬
too you can see how important it is to make ences something other than oneself So now, for
mistakes; in other words this whole discussion me, the question is really: How does one bring this
is inconceivable without mistakes. And such into form?
discussion is always interesting if you discover Beuys: You see, we all still live in a culture that
a mistake in yourself and try to improve it; or if says: there are artists and there are non-artists.
one tries together, that is with a student, a This becomes something inhuman, giving rise
pupil, to trace Avhere the mistake lies, or where to the concept of alienation between people.
something is still lacking; or also, of course, No, every person continually performs material
where the pupil knows something a great deal processes. He continually creates interrelation¬
better than the teacher [laughs] — that’s possible ships. Even when he gives, when he defers to
of course. No, people undertake things that another, or the way he behaves in a crowd,
assume specific form. there are always, let’s say, form processes at
After all, people can only express themselves work. Dancers, after all, do nothing other than
in ways that have material forms. Of course this move, on their feet. And people on a crowded
is already there in language. But if this model, street are basically dancers too. So the moment
which doesn’t have to be at all grand — every¬ you become conscious of this, you are involved
thing today is far too grand — if this tangible in this problem. I want to get away from this:
expression is there, then one can see better from the way the issue of form is laid on artists,
where it has come from and whether the matrix or on art in the traditional sense. I want to get
of forces that constellates it, let’s say, is really things to the stage where people experience
the optimum one. And one can discuss this themselves as being continually involved in this
forever. And this whole process is culture; this question; and then, as they keep experiencing
is what it’s all about. It really is not culture if and creating these material processes, that they
something is just asserted, or made into an basically also experience that social sculpture is
ideology, enthroned. Then, of course, one a necessity, and that it is necessary to take
wants to dethrone it again, as it is no longer things in that they normally don’t perceive. In
modern. Every five years a new fashion ascends other words, social sculpture or the social
the throne, and every five years it has to vanish organism is not a thing that one can perceive,
again. That’s the modern cultural industry that unfortunately not, or thank God not. For if it
one can read about in the newspaper supple¬ could be perceived people would die of terror.
ments, and that’s no culture at all! Because this social organism is so ill that it is
absolutely high time to subject it to radical
I’m interested in how this works — I can imagine it, treatment, otherwise humanity will go under.
I can trace this very well inwardly - that you enter And our social organism exists like a living

21
What is Art?

being in a condition of the severest illness. on substance and substance processes, on what
Through these activities, undertaken con¬ I’d like to call sculptural logic, you perceive this.
sciously, one can school oneself to perceive Suddenly you see it all and you know what to
this; to perceive the sickness of the social do. And then the concept of social sculpture
organism as a living being, to perceive its suddenly has a function, and is tangible and
movements — to see what has been formed — in accessible to our senses, is no longer invisible at
other words, to compare the contemporary all. Then you can perceive whether something
shape and form of the social organism with its like this exists at a place of work or not, whe¬
archetype. This is a sculptural concept, which ther there are small beginnings, or if things
you arrive at only by practising all this first. have already developed further; and that is a
Then you perceive sculptural things that are not warmth organism, in other words, an evolu¬
perceptible with a normal instrument of per¬ tionary force.
ception. That is why it is so hard for people to
draw up a list of criteria, or express them, or If I have understood you rightly, and keeping the
reproduce them in diagrammatic form, or even whole thing in mind, then I have the sense that this
compile statistics about them, relating to the therapy of which you spoke before really tends
question: How should human society be struc¬ towards, yes, I won’t say the perception of arche¬
tured; what form should it now take? Because types, but perhaps towards an approach to the
they have no sense or perception of the arche¬ perception of archetypes; and that one really comes
type, that is, of the healthy condition of a social back to the point where one can perceive the
organism as it evolves. Clearly, it must be dif¬ spiritual background to these things, where it
ferent today from what it was a thousand years becomes accessible to perception and experience.
ago. And it is often difficult for people to grasp Beuys: Yes, accessible to experience, to the
this whole, dynamic context; which is also why extent that one really pursues things: for
they can’t grasp the criteria for the need for instance, if one enters right into, lives into, what
institutions, for measures that must be taken to this stone must experience or feel as it sits here
attain this state of health. That alone would be in the wall, how it formed and from what it
ecology if we could grasp this ecological ques¬ arose, and what function it has now taken on. I
tion at its root. Of course it is also very impor¬ can spend a long time pondering this. And then
tant to take measures to protect the one can ask, yes, what is all this here in
environment; yet people often stop at a certain between; this is one thing and that is something
point and say that they’re not interested in such else. This may be too much to ask of people
things, they’re only interested in the living who have to live in quite different spheres of life
plant. When they do this they are really saying and have their daily quota of work to complete,
that the plant is more important to them than but in my view it is indispensable for those who
the human being, and so they are clearly call themselves artists. However, since it is not
separating something off. Ecology goes further, right to say that only a few people are artists, I
reaches further, and relates to the social orga¬ can only say that there is a general need for
nism’s capacity for life, for this is a living being people to learn and practise in this way, unless
that we cannot today perceive with our ordin¬ they have already learned it, and they haven’t.
ary senses, without practice. When you practise After all, our school system is not one that
22
 Conversation with Joseph Beuys

Xfpf'
If. .
n Vx* ' » * ' T&’rrJ
fySt,

iBl

4. The wall’s ‘clinker’

bricks

teaches this to people from childhood. Children cept is inappropriate. It’s an overall shaping,
all know this very well, to start with, but the forming task.
school system drives it out of them. At one time
children knew what stone was. But then they Within this shaping task each person would really
lost it, systematically, you might say. Yes, that’s he a recreator of himself, or a recreator of his
how it is. When people come into the world surroundings, I don’t know how one should
they already know all this since they have expand on this.
already experienced it, and then it’s mined for Beuys: Yes, of himself and his surroundings,
them. So the teacher basically only needs to that’s right. I don’t think it can be expressed any
make gende references to this problem, since more simply or truly. Yes, the very phrase ‘He is
children already know all about it. Yes, and the creator of himself and his surroundings’
then one needs to support this process. But expresses the fact that the human being creates
because it isn’t supported, and something else the world. It is not presumptuous to say this,
is supported, these things are lost, and subse¬ because this is what is required of human
quently also the perception of the inter¬ beings. There have been times when a great
relationships. Ultimately perception of the deal was given to human beings, by leaders and
interconnectedness, of the whole web of inter¬ spiritual mediators; when the collective ethos
relationships, is destroyed. So you see these was dominant, and there were, of course, pre¬
dangers, which are all there, which have cepts and rules connected with this, which had
already wreaked their terrible damage, have to to be stricdy adhered to. This all had a purpose
be counteracted with something. You can call once upon a time. But because we have eman¬
this the political field - but, as I said the con¬ cipated ourselves from this we no longer

23
What is Art?

receive all this as credit to start with; we can sistent exploration of warmth sculpture. And since
achieve it through our own powers that we have I believe that all the things that you have done in
actually acquired during the course of evolu¬ sequence could also be done simultaneously, so the
tion. And because we can do this, it is also drawing, the shaping of objects and the environ¬
required of us. So, we can do it; in principle, we ment, as well as your actions, or conducting dis¬
can do it. There is a great deal of misery in the cussions, all represent different forms and ways of
world because things are, how can I put it, very relating to this path, this search. And perhaps one
disturbed and overlaid with negative forces, could characterize this a little for the sake of oth¬
and also wilfully malevolent forces. But basi¬ ers’ activity; describe the difference between these
cally the human being can do this by, let’s say, types of engagement. Because this discussion here
engaging with what’s in front of him, rather is surely also being conducted from the perspective
than approaching things with prejudice, with of how one can become more specific and tangible
all that he is told, or the way propaganda in one’s own journeying, searching and finding:
characterizes human beings. that is, how we can be stimulated to work with a
Yes, I don’t know whether I have taken this pencil or the substances we find, relating them to
too far now. You are a priest, so you probably each other, or doing neither of these but conduct¬
know if what I say sounds too strange ing a discussion. In each case, after all, this is a
[laughs]. different type of engagement with phenomena and
their interrelationships. So perhaps this also
Perhaps we could still try a little to characterize the relates to your question of how one can make such
difference between the various activities involved things more specific and palpable.
in the exercises you’ve been talking about. When Beuys: Yes, I think there’s nothing more fun¬
one observes what you yourself have made, on the damental than drawing. For instance, if I show
one hand there is a path you have travelled, one someone the way, and draw it on paper,
you have clarified to yourself through drawings. So showing him how the roads go, then I’m
I’d now like to look at the drawings in the sense of drawing of course. Drawing is really nothing
them being a continual form of questioning: to other than planning: one embodies, represents,
what extent can I grasp the interconnections? To gives experiential form to something or a spa¬
what extent, in other words, does the ‘warmth tial relationship, or just relationships of size.
sculpture’ become tangible? Then you passed And I think one should remember that we have
slowly from this period of drawing activity into a all drawn a huge, huge amount in our lives. And
different activity, shaping things more sculptu¬ if we haven’t done it on our own initiative then
rally, though less in the sense of actions and more we have been made to do it, for instance
in an object-related sense; and this shifted more drawing geometrical shapes at school. One
and more towards you representing the act of should approach this in a much less inhibited
making itself, or doing it together with others way, never saying: that’s someone who can
rather than alone; until, in recent years, your work draw, but I can’t. There’s no such thing.
has come to consist very much - as you are doing Everyone can draw. As long as he has hands he
here - in activating things through dialogues, can draw of course; and even if he hasn’t he can
discussions, in conversation, in confrontation, in still draw with his feet. And what arises from
question and answer; in other words, as a con¬ this awareness, as an exercise or whatever —
24
 Conversation with Joseph Beuys

naturally something arises — is certainly some¬ doesn’t necessarily have to be linked to a

thing quite diverse. So drawing is something drawing, not necessarily.
very fundamental, that everyone can do,
although there might be differences in out¬ Wouldn’t this already he a prejudice to set up a
come. But one doesn’t have to draw, one‘can, of sequence like this? First drawing, then objects. One
course, do something else. It is also one-sided to would have to go further back than this.
think that everyone ought to go along an artistic Beuys: Yes, yes, we did go further back, to
path, have an artistic biography, in which one thinking, at this threshold situation. We spoke
first draws, then makes sculptures or objects, about speech; and writing for instance is also
then actions. One can also engage as a doctor, drawing. If you just observe a little what the
with substances and medical knowledge, with hand does there, these funny squiggles, then
what one was taught at university in a different you can see it’s also drawing. That’s why I say
way; and under certain circumstances drawing that everyone is an artist who draws, since
could also surface in the process. But it would everyone depicts and represents: everyone
naturally be one-sided to say that everyone has represents, some more, others less. Of course
to draw in order to be creative. that’s linked to the profession you choose. But
I’m not sure where we’re heading now. We’re in living consciously, drawing probably
deviating a litde from our course. You can see appears anyway. If I’m a litde more conscious
how tricky art is, it’s always getting in your way. about keeping a tight rein on myself, then
Suddenly the thought has surfaced that, yes, sometimes I write a sentence; and now and then
drawing is really very important and funda¬ I look at the imprint I’ve left in the world, in this
mental, and that everyone can draw after a case on paper, and then I’ll also reflect on large
fashion. One can train oneself to draw, or also and small, on proportions and suchlike. And
leave it be. But it is not absolutely necessary: a then I’ll be able to find my way into this, but
person has to discover through reflecting and that doesn’t mean I have to become an artist
feeling whether it’s important for him. But I who draws. That has to express itself in my
cannot say that the only way is for everyone to work. In other words I have to invent quite
draw. This is due to the fact that I myself have different systems of measurement. As a nurse
drawn, and through drawing have attempted to one can also draw, perhaps noting down all
get a dialogue going, and, of course, to make sorts of things, taking notes about what one
drawings that have their own life, that simply experiences in the nursing relationship with
exist as constellations; as matrices of forces. sick people, also in a spatial sense. I say this
Naturally I wanted to bring life out on paper: without meaning to imply that a nurse ought to
that’s something I wanted, this remarkable life be a portrait sketcher, should draw every single
in an artwork, which doesn’t live in an actual, patient. I just mean that if one did this, one
physiological sense, and is also not fully active would probably get a lot more out of a profes¬
in a spiritual sense, as we saw before with the sion. But you can’t present this as a prescription
olive leaf. Of course, I wanted there to be this for a path to be pursued. Paths vary a great deal.
type of living experience. But I also tried to Quite apart from the fact that there are also
show that this can be transposed to and many different views about drawing; even the
accomplished in all possible fields of work, and notion of a style of drawing is anything but

25
What is Art?

positive. So it might really be better to link into spoke of before when you referred to the future,

something where someone has already made a freedom etc.

start or, thank God, has made a mistake; Beuys: But turning one’s conscious attention to

something which one can discuss further. the process does already lead one to the form.
For example in the kitchen: most stuff in the
Perhaps what you’ve experienced in your drawings kitchen nowadays is toxic, we know that. And
is something that one could equally well experience now one has to see that one absorbs as little

working in the kitchen poison as possible. That’s already, let’s say, a

Beuys: Yes. confrontation with the times we live in. We

have to ask ourselves: What gives rise to all
Perhaps by looking at the different types of vege¬ this? It derives from the capitalist system. How
table and thinking about what distinguishes them did the capitalist system arise? And can you still
from each other, and how one can combine them. talk about creativity even when the products for
Beuys: Yes, yes, that’s right, I was trying to human beings, specifically those from nature,
express that. Yes, or setting up the kitchen dif¬ that is from farming, are already so degenerate
ferently, or getting rid of everything that’s really and ruined? It is not that the whole thing has to
useless in the kitchen; and perhaps also making be right, but it has to be given a different
good use of or converting what you’ve thrown direction. Actually I’ll say that it has started
out. The worst thing nowadays is the way peo¬ here already, with the head of lettuce, or with
ple furnish and equip their dwellings. If you the discussion about the floor. For instance, the
look at all this you feel horrified — it’s really bad stones that are lying around here — I don’t
how people live today, and all that they acquire know why people chopped away at them like
and buy, everything that’s in the daily papers this. Why did they do it? I can see that someone
every morning, the brochures from furniture made small stones, then larger ones, and also
companies. Yes, their sales must be brilliant blocks of stone, and the like. But what’s the
otherwise they couldn’t mount such crazy pro¬ point of it? Complete nonsense [laughs]! I think
paganda. This whole load of garbage that peo¬ it’s absolute stupidity. At any rate it’s a pre¬
ple acquire — it’s terrible. How people live, their determined view of some kind, an artificial
homes, it’s all of such key importance. After all playing with forms, abstract art misunderstood
you spend most of your life at home; all the stuff [laughs]. It’s the same everywhere; everydiing
there is terrible: people should have a good look can start you on a discussion of the world. And
at it, talk about it and really see what’s there. then you come to the question of ‘direction’, of
the impetus, the motivation. Here you see that
The question about the direction we need to move there’s a particular juncture, at the root, where
in is surely also connected with the fact that the things go wrong. And this juncture is our con¬
everyday can become very significant; that we can cept of work. This is connected with the con¬
live in it and come to see that ultimately there’s no cept of art, but it’s no longer imbued with the
area that is not shaped and formed, and that concept of art, no longer imbued with concepts
doesn’t have artistic value. But this, in itself, of creativity, no longer imbued with self¬
doesn’t promote evolution. Perhaps for the indivi¬ responsibility — this is impossible in the kind of
dual okay, but not more generally, in the way you system we live in. Even if someone wishes to, he
26
 Conversation with Joseph Beuys

can’t take real responsibility for his actions therefore makes the economy revolve around
since everything is, as it were, done from above profit, exploitation etc. There is only human
downwards. That can all be changed, but you capacity and what flows from it. And this can
have to work to achieve this, by developing a continually be discussed and explored in an
real interest in putting things right - things that ongoing dialogue between people, and lead to
are all so degenerate, so chaotic, that are all endless productivity that builds up and
wrecking the world. So the fact that these stones rebuilds the world; that under certain circum¬
are so important to us is actually linked to the stances builds up a whole new cosmos and
question of atomic power stations [laughs]. Yes, does not destroy it. The current system is not
that’s how I see this. There is some kind of about growth — they just call it growth. It is in
inner connection: a lack of real thought, a fact a process of shrinkage and contraction.
desire to flog and sell things; someone was no Because external growth obviously develops
doubt very interested in selling these stones further like a tumour. It is actually a death
here. But there was less thought given to whe¬ process. For this reason it’s not at all produc¬
ther this is the right form, or whether it had to tive, and is also not growth at all either. It’s not
be these stones — it’s all such an automatic growth; it’s just additive, cancerous prolifera¬
process that runs like this: building contractors tion of certain interests that people can no
commission the stone mason, the tilers com¬ longer control. But we can control them. It
mission someone else, and so on. One can depends on us. It’s not up to politicians, there’s
break through this and then work much more no point in swearing at them. Maybe they don’t
effectively and productively. The concept of always have the best motivation, but there are
economic growth and the concept of capital some well-motivated ones amongst them. But
and all that goes with it, does not really make they’re allowed to do as they like, they’re never
the world productive. No, the concept of art corrected, or even made to take part in a dia¬
must replace the degenerate concept of capital. logue. In other words, if something is bad one
Art is really tangible capital, and people need to can only blame oneself, nobody else.
become aware of this. Money and capital can¬
not be an economic value, capital is human
A work develops
dignity and creativity. And so, in keeping with
this, we need to develop a concept of money I have a question Herr Beuys. You said before,
that allows creativity, or art, so to speak, to be when you were talking about making your works,
capital. Art is capital. This is not some pipe that at some point you realize that how it is, is as
dream; it is a reality. In other words, capital is good as you can get it now, or: somehow that it is
what art is. Capital is human capacity and what right -I no longer recall how you put it. Could you
flows from it. So there are only two organs perhaps describe how you perceive this rightness,
involved here, or two polar relationships: crea¬ in other words the web of factors involved in such a
tivity and human intention, from which a pro¬ relationship, how you experience them, because
duct arises. These are the real economic values, this isn’t so apparent. I could imagine many people
nothing else. Money is not. However, we have a saying: What you have done there is not finished at
concept of capital where an economic value all, or that’s not right at all. Could you explain this
intervenes and wrecks everything, which a bit more?

27
What is Art?

Beuys: Yes, first of all you have to distinguish

between things that have a certain, how shall I
put it, thematic intention. For instance one
could immediately talk about drawings that
include actors, actors in the widest sense, either
from nature or also from the animal kingdom,
plants or people, or also cosmological actors.
One can only assess each thing by identifying
what element is still missing. So, quite simply,
one could now say: if I decide to make a torso,
it’s obvious that the head doesn’t have to be
there. But if I intend to portray a human being,
then of course the head element must be there.
In such work one must clearly always consider:
‘What is still lacking in what has been repre¬
sented?’
In other things, where the figurative aspect,
or hinting at the figurative aspect, does not play
such a big part, it often has to be judged from
quite different perspectives; for instance, in
architecture, according to relationships of size,
volume, weight, substance, proportions etc.
Again one can only make this convincing when
one uses an object, so that, let’s say, I have a
5. Joseph Beuys, part of ‘Fond III’, 1969, copper
certain cube, or a certain pile of objects — I have plate on felt layers, Stroher collection, Darmstadt
also composed a work using layers — I have a
particular idea, that I often research through
my work on paper, until I know how high it have tall legs and a narrow table top, and it has
should be; that it is now at the level it should be. to have all these things; demonstrating an
But there is no basic, underlying, objective size, absolute, how shall I put it, perspective on a
where I can say that a certain organ is missing; character, since there are, for instance, also
instead this must come from the thing itself, short-legged animals.
from the thing’s own dynamic being. There are short-legged animals, which of
And there is always a decision to be made. course would no longer express their intrinsic
For one knows, doesn’t one, that one can make character if they did not have short legs — for
a very beautiful, short-legged table, for instance. instance a badger couldn’t possible be a badger
One can make a beautiful and expressive table if it suddenly had deer-length legs. So, one
that is very convincing, because there is an always has to start from the particular char¬
appropriate relationship between the short legs acter. A table, for example, can always be seen
and the table top and frame; whereas another in this way: so, a table can be very expressive if
table, that one makes, say, a week later, has to it is short-legged and has particularly awkward
28
 Conversation with Joseph Beuys

V
•’ o u o o b o o V> o o o o\ h o ol)*- > oV, 7*b o u

6. Joseph Beuys,
‘Streifen vom Haus
des Schamanen’
[‘Strips from the
Shaman’s House’],
1980: Proportions

29
What is Art?

proportions. It can sometimes be enormously questions in isolation from the process itself
expressive because it has a character like an or the material that one actually has to deal
animal that has fairly awkward and curtailed with.
limbs, like a badger, for instance. So, taking an
image from the whole spectrum of forces and Would you, regarding your own work, say: What I
letting it come to life, in a completely non¬ have made is now finished for me, or would you
representative field — this provides a measure. I say: That’s finished, in other words the thing is
don’t know whether that’s an answer to such a complete in itself ?
question. So the criteria for something, for Beuys: I never say that it’s finished for me, but,
what’s involved here, the criteria as to its when it’s finished I say: The table is as it wants
quality, can again really only be discussed in to be. So I never say: I declare this thing fin¬
direct relation to something, by circling around ished; but rather I wait until the object itself
it a thousand times, looking at it and trying lets me know and says: I am finished [laughs].
different things out. Above all, it becomes Yes, that’s definitely how it is. I never decide
interesting when you’ve completed something whether something is finished, but the object
and think it’s perfect; and then suddenly see has to let me know and say: That’s it, I’m fin¬
that in fact it’s the stupidest thing you’ve ever ished. I try to realize what lies in the intention,
done. And then you have to rework it, in other one could say, what the intention wishes to
words, correct it, and that’s particularly diffi¬ realize; in other words, in the things that
cult. But it also has the enormous advantage emerge and are not quite finished, I try to sense
that only now can you draw something out of it what is needed — what it is that the wood or the
which never occurred to you as a possibility stone wants.
before, because it wasn’t at all visible. The
mistake one makes in the first attempt can turn Is that also how you come to the themes for your
out to be an extraordinary gift as far as the work drawings?
is concerned. Having noticed a mistake, some¬ Beuys: Yes
thing has to be reworked. And then something
comes about that seems wholly new. That’s .. .in the case of the drawings there are somehow
how I’ve often experienced it at any rate. One always recurring themes, quite particular
learns an enormous amount from mistakes in themes...
particular, as long as one doesn’t tire too easily Beuys: Yes, often, yes.
and say: Oh no, it’s no good — I’ll leave it and
start something new. If one says: This mistake • in fact, that also have a quite specific expressive
is something that I’m not just going to leave as it value.
is, but I’ll make something of this mistake, Beuys: Yes, that’s right, that’s also the case with
which is much better than I originally envi¬ the drawings; but I also don’t think that’s any¬
saged. This is something I’ve often done suc¬ thing special, for sometimes you can create
cessfully, because I’m then involved with the something wonderful, which seems to be one
work for a long time.
hundred per cent sound, and has also been
But I m sure this is still not an appropriate considered from all perspectives; and you place
answer. It is always difficult to answer such it there, once it’s finished, and you’ve made the
30
 Conversation with Joseph Beuys

greatest efforts, and then you suddenly see —

what do you see? — yes, people describe this by
saying: it just doesn’t speak. It simply doesn’t
communicate. And it’s sometimes very difficult
to trace why this is, how it can be that a work
you’ve invested so much time in suddenly
doesn’t speak. A work has to speak, to com¬
municate. Lo and behold, it doesn’t speak
[laughs], although you invested the greatest
effort, and sometimes also a fair amount of
money.
For instance I once made a large marble
relief. I thought it was really good and thought
this will really be something. Once it was fin¬
ished I thought, okay, now it’s finished, I’ll put
it against the wall and then I saw that it didn’t
speak, it was nonsense, it wasn’t working, it was
somehow impossible. And then I reworked it
completely.
7. Box
Yes, and then sometimes there is something
— again this sounds as though it were special,
but it isn’t — for instance this box here. I don’t objects, these boxes, whereas it’s hard to find
find it at all bad. It actually does speak to me. anything else around here that is as good as
Whereas the floor doesn’t speak to me at all. these three boxes [laughs].
The floor is the biggest idiocy of the century Yes, for instance I think these chairs are a lot
[laughs]. Yes, it’s true that it’s laid in an alter¬ worse — my sense of form makes me think one
nating pattern — I already mentioned this — and ought really to go back to the natural world to
there are pieces laid together that alternate: I find similar or perhaps even much more highly
don’t know what they call this pattern, Roman evolved qualities. You could say that has to do
Bond or some such name. Yes, but it doesn’t with the simple, primary nature of the thing.
work. It is nonsense. While the box does speak Yes, fine, I can go along with that. But one
to me. These boxes aren’t bad at all. The teapot, knows, doesn’t one, that relating to things in an
though, doesn’t speak at all. Again that’s uninhibited and, what shall I say, primary way,
something that I’d say is just another object. But sometimes described as ‘primitive’, can often be
these boxes have their own distinct quality and the most highly developed expression of cul¬
intentionality, because there was no pre¬ ture. One also knows that there are no poorly
tentiousness involved here, just a basic func¬ made objects to be found during the so-called

tion. It’s simply a box, nailed together well, has primitive era, the period of early history. Hand-

a certain surface area, is wholly practical; and axes or arrowheads, or simple fishing hooks or

that gives it its own power of expression. suchlike — they’re all of very high quality. And

Absolutely. In other words, these are dignified that is precisely what is lacking in our time. It’s

31
What is Art?

example looking at this thing, you might say

now that one could have a good discussion
about it. Someone could say: it needs another
strip of wood here; while I would say: no, that
would just be stupid to attach another strip of
wood there. On this side [turns the box
around], something or other doesn’t fit, it’s
true, but there’s something very beautiful here
nevertheless, for, to start with, you get a crack,
which somehow leads you into a mysterious
interior; apart from this, a small strip of wood
would be too insubstantial. Things were used
for this that people found lying about; here a
wide plank of wood, there a narrow one. So you
see, you have here a very dynamic proportion
between a short piece of wood and a small one.
If you were to attach a strip here, it would be
like paper. Then you could say: that’s wrong,
let’s rip that out again, there’s no real need for
it. So the fact that this piece of wood simply
peers out above, with the rough grain upper¬
most, and is not perfect, is the reason why you
have to leave it as it is. These are all criteria for
8. Chair something that is good. This one is different
again. It’s simply been covered over on top and
overhangs on the right and left. But here too I
all been spoiled. Now this has a great deal to do would say that it would be narrow-minded if
with craft. 1 don’t mean craft as refined ability, someone came along and said: It overhangs far
using all sorts of machines and highly devel¬ more on the left than on the right. Yes, I’d even
oped things, but craft as an attitude, as con¬ say that if the overhang was equal on both
sciousness, in which one can still enter into the sides, then the simple impulse to just take
intentions of a plank of wood. In fact, it is something and hammer it together would have
encouraging to see that these planks were not
been lost, and along with it the life of the thing
felled in vain. The wood is not very valuable, in
too. That’s the reason why this box over here is
fact, it is probably waste wood, off-cuts, which
worse, also because it has been over stained.
someone would probably otherwise have
The material wasn’t well handled. You see how
burned, if another hadn’t come along and made
something like this ages so beautifully and
a fine chair, or this kind of base, or a box with
acquires a lovely tone; while here the staining
it. Also, through the natural materials that have
has spoiled it. This one is therefore much
been used, one could say it has its own dignity.
worse. So, there are different levels of criteria,
But all these are just different criteria. For
which, in my view, are objective when you look
32
 Conversation with Joseph Beuys

9. Two boxes

into them. They can be integrated into a broad ‘decide’ relates to ‘decisive’ — in other words
system of concepts, and applied to the things decisiveness and not vacillation. Doing one
we make like a catalogue of criteria. thing but not forgetting about the other. For
This goes right into the most spiritual terri¬ example, it should be crooked and slanted,
tory, for here, this crack that leads into the though not completely slanted. There’s a bour¬
darkness could clearly even be seen as mytho¬ geois narrow-mindedness, however, in so
logical. It is not at all banal, not at all. I mean many different forms of art, including craft
you can imagine all sorts of — not associations and architecture, as well as in functional,
- but connections to life that are also to be everyday objects, which have all been reduced
found in nature. If this box were to stand out¬ to a mediocre norm.
side, then at some point or other it would cer¬ In fact, what I have described, using these

tainly become a beehive, for example. Bees two objects, is how I work, and also how I

would certainly go into it — that opening s evaluate my work. You can take this a lot fur¬

exactly the right size - or other animals would ther, by sitting down in front of it and working

live in it. You see, something can breathe in at it, looking at it, sometimes for a very long

there. But of course it might equally be the time, just repeatedly observing it, for instance

case that someone comes along who prevents the differences in height. These are roughly the

this happening, and insists that it has to stay same height, but not exactly [places boxes next

empty. This could be achieved by simply cov¬ to each other]. Not completely, but both heights

ering it over, closing it off, and thats it. The have something absolutely illuminating. There

one principle is as valid as the other, and both is no reason to make this lower or higher. At

are underpinned by decisions. The word least, not in this case.

33
What is Art?

of it, then so be it. Or if someone sits down here,

say, which would be fine, or takes it as a writing
desk to make some notes, that’s also fine; or if
he puts it in the kitchen to chop some vege¬
tables on it, that’s also fine. I’m not talking
about that; it can be used for all sorts of things,
and it is fine and useful and beneficial in any
context, because there’s no deception being
practised here. Here’s the truth, nothing con¬
cealed, just the plain truth. And so the matter is
clear. How one uses it in specific instances is
something else, a secondary matter. One can
certainly ... yes, as far as I’m concerned, put a
flower on top of it. But I don’t believe that it
would work, making something to put flowers
on. I don’t think it could ever work — making
something to put flowers on; that. I’m sure,
wouldn’t work.

Why not?
Beuys: Yes, that’s an interesting question. I just
said it to make a point, and I think I’m right
[participants laugh].
10. Box with crack
No, I’m not looking maliciously at the table
[laughs]. Yes, it’s to do with how one relates to
Unless one wanted to put something specific on flowers, so it probably has to do with the
top, of a certain height, to pursue a particular flowers themselves that it wouldn’t work. First
intention; perhaps to use it as a plant stand, it of all there is a problem with flowers and plants
would be nice for a palm. indoors. So I think they would feel best if one
Beuys: Plant stands, a terrible bourgeois treated it more like an experiment, an attempt,
invention [laughs]. Flower holders! Yes, I also rather than simply misusing them as decora¬
experienced them in my childhood [laughs]. tion in a place where the architect failed in
some way. Yes, that’s what architects do if
But it seems to me that we’re approaching the something is wrong; then you have to bring on
problem of use, that is, that one has to be able to the plants, and always these decorative tropical
use something as a chair, for example, or a table. ones with holes in them [participants laugh]. Or
Beuys: The question here is not whether one those low-maintenance plants that you can
should use it as a chair, or whether it should be leave to go thirsty and hungry, get covered in
mounted as a sculpture in a museum, that’s not dust, that still survive in any air-conditioned
the issue here at all. Here the question is about office — low-maintenance plants that aren’t so
the object itself. If someone puts a flower on top far from being plastic, or which people have
34
 Conversation with Joseph Beuys

brought along to endure this environment: that invalid. I could certainly imagine this. You see,
is the overall context. the longer I speak about it, the more I almost
feel interested in plant stands [laughs].
Nowadays in offices they’re actually made of
plastic. But, quite apart from the plants and flowers, you
Beuys: Yes, I know, that too [laughs]. Now I said: Here’s a box and one can use it for anything,
think I know how to put it. Putting plants on a you can put plants on it, cut cabbage on it etc. It’s a
pedestal like this doesn’t mean we are engaging fact that objects exist and one can use them in
lovingly with them, but is ruled by a different many different ways. But can’t one, shouldn’t one,
interest, that of decoration. So the plant takes actually make an object for a very specific pur¬
on a wallpaper-like function; or it becomes like pose? Of course it can be something other than a
furniture, serving a convention, since you just plant stand - a cupboard for instance or a table:
have to have plants etc. That’s why it’s not right. such an object has to fulfil a quite specific purpose.
However, if one wants to bring a plant into a Beuys: Yes, that sounds true, but it’s never¬
room and really tend it, one can have no theless false...
objection to that; but then you’ll create the right
kind of living conditions for it, which don’t Do you mean specifically to do with plants and
necessarily require a plinth or pedestal. One flowers, or quite generally?
can use something or other on which you put Beuys: No, this is a table after all, and this is
the plant, at a certain height, where it has the also a table. It’s only a very small table, but it
right light, on a windowsill or something else. would certainly do, for example, in a small hut
These flower stands and plant plinths that you for two people to drink tea at. No, the first
can also get in cast iron, from bourgeois times, requirement of the table is of course as a sur¬
which you see pictured on the Mark, all these face at a certain height for working or sitting at,
odd things like three-legged stands, and then a nothing more is required. And then the very
type of bowl on top where you’re meant to put next, important question is whether it is a
the flower pot, they’re somehow terribly petit genuine table, for of course nowadays — you
bourgeois. In other words, they’re unnecessary just need to go to a furniture shop — there are
objects and actually degrade the plant; at least any number, thousands, millions of flat sur¬
that’s the context of my experience. I just faces set up at working height, made of glass,
wanted to engage very specifically with the cri¬ with brass feet and marble tops, with all sorts of
teria I work with for a moment. It may all sound gimmicks so that you can get your legs up on
exaggerated, although I don’t think I have a the marble top [participants laugh], or just one
prejudice against such things. I would be open leg, and then with gimmicky things inside too,
to persuasion if, in spite of all I ve said, I were to so that it looks as snazzy as possible, as though
see a beautiful plant stand [laughs]. I’m not the marble top were floating by itself in space,
dogmatic, being dogmatic is also wrong; you and all that sort of thing. Nevertheless you’ll
really shouldn’t be dogmatic [participants hardly find a table that can be justified by a
laugh]. For it is actually possible that someone structural or sculptural idea, never mind the
might succeed in giving a plant stand such a need for such decorative objects. It’s all a
fine quality that for once these views would be swindle.
35
What is Art?

What I wanted to say is that the primary its rightness, even if one day humanity were to
requirement of a table — after deciding you develop a quite different kind of table. The table
need a table, that a certain number of people must have an eternal value, it must have an
have to sit round, that it has to be big enough intrinsic need to want to keep living, and to
for a family with thee children, so five alto¬ really spread its tableness everywhere, because
gether - is that the proportions are right, that is, it’s really content with itself and healthy, and is
the dimensions, the rhythm, the scale, the therefore an interesting creature, an interesting
volumes have to be right. This then is exactly form. That’s how I approach things, just to give
the same as is asked, ultimately, of a Greek an example. That’s why we can be glad that we
temple. It must be just as good as the temple in have these two boxes here. One could actually
Paestum, or another equally good building. The carry on talking for a long time about such
very highest demands are thus made of a table things.
if it is to be satisfied with itself as a table, for you
have to enter into it as if it were a living thing. If I’d be glad to try that; I find it interesting that you
it isn’t a good table, if it isn’t right, then it’s like say that this stool or this box speaks to you,
a sick animal that suffers its whole life from whereas this floor, as you said, doesn’t. A similar
being the way it is. That’s how you have to thing happens to me, and I ask myself: What is this
approach it. So it has to be brought into a form due to, the fact that it doesn’t speak to me, or only
in which the material and the forms are really in a little? It makes me think that these ready-made
accord with each other, and are satisfied and things, this precision, actually compels me to
want to go on living; and therefore also, as I behave in a particular way, not just these things
said, there needs to be a certain timelessness in here, but also a certain window, or a specific type

11. Alta Quartzite

floor tiles in the foyer
of the Bochum church

12. Beuys’s living

and workroom at
Drakeplatz,
Diisseldorf. Where
the stove stood he
later added copper
sheeting ^
36
 Conversation with Joseph Beuys

0/ architecture that is very fixed, very straight, that with its context, almost vanishes in nature. A
derives from something very thought out; this Greek temple basically says that the olive tree
compels me to live or behave in a similar way. standing beside it is much more beautiful than
Beuys: Yes, right, exactly; in other words, this it is; and, vice versa, the olive tree says that the
lives [points to the box] while the other [points temple is much more beautiful. They are one
to the floor] is dead. The first doesn’t force itself and the same thing; things interpenetrate each
on you, the other continually forces itself on other. There is really a unity there; which is not
you. In your subconscious you are looking at present in such, how shall I say, run of the mill
these things, these tiles. You can move around consumerism, because in this, the love of
here as much as you like and say you’re not something as art is not the primary thing. It is
looking at them, but in fact you’re always more of a routine commercial attitude. So,
influenced by this senseless stuff under your someone phones through to order: Roman
feet. That’s really true. And that’s also a char¬ Bond, the material, yes, yes, this here is a type of
acteristic of great art that it just doesn’t force mica slate...
itself on you at all, but rather completely merges

37
What is Art?

13. Beuys’s living

and workroom at
Drakeplatz,
Diisseldorf, the floor
of which is covered in
cowhide carefully
sewn together. All
offcuts were also
used.

38