Re: PostgreSQL License

*Can anyone explain the PostgreSQL License to me?*
*Can I create a database with it and sell the database also preventing the
buyer from reselling it?*
*Can I change in the logos of the PostgreSQL system and its name?*

Please don't cross-post your question to more than one list!

Ashkar Dev wrote:
> Can anyone explain the PostgreSQL License to me?
> Can I create a database with it and sell the database also preventing
> the buyer from reselling it?
> Can I change in the logos of the PostgreSQL system and its name?

Yes.

You only have to make sure that the original license text is included
in your license. This does not limit what you are allowed to do with
the software.

Yours,
Laurenz Albe
--
Cybertec | https://www.cybertec-postgresql.com

Thank you all,
but it is saying (without fee)
if I create a database with it to work with Web Application if want to sell
it so the buyer must have the PostgreSQL installed in his device to work
offline right?
"Permission to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software and its
documentation for any purpose, *without fee*, and without a written
agreement is hereby granted, provided that the above copyright notice and
this paragraph and the following two paragraphs appear in all copies."

>
On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 11:18 PM Laurenz Albe <laurenz(dot)albe(at)cybertec(dot)at>
wrote:

> Please don't cross-post your question to more than one list!
>
> Ashkar Dev wrote:
> > Can anyone explain the PostgreSQL License to me?
> > Can I create a database with it and sell the database also preventing
> > the buyer from reselling it?
> > Can I change in the logos of the PostgreSQL system and its name?
>
> Yes.
>
> You only have to make sure that the original license text is included
> in your license. This does not limit what you are allowed to do with
> the software.
>
> Yours,
> Laurenz Albe
> --
> Cybertec | https://www.cybertec-postgresql.com
>
>

On 2019-09-17 14:56:30 +0300, Ashkar Dev wrote:
> but it is saying (without fee)
> if I create a database with it to work with Web Application if want to sell it
> so the buyer must have the PostgreSQL installed in his device to work offline
> right?
> "Permission to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software and its
> documentation for any purpose, without fee, and without a written agreement is
> hereby granted, provided that the above copyright notice and this paragraph and
> the following two paragraphs appear in all copies."

This means that you don't have to pay a fee or sign a written agreement
to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software and its documentation
for any purpose. It doesn't say that you can't charge a fee for
distributing (although why anybody would pay you for something they can
download themselves for free I don't know).

hp

--
_ | Peter J. Holzer | we build much bigger, better disasters now
|_|_) | | because we have much more sophisticated
| | | hjp(at)hjp(dot)at | management tools.
__/ | http://www.hjp.at/ | -- Ross Anderson <https://www.edge.org/>

På tirsdag 17. september 2019 kl. 22:55:02, skrev Peter J. Holzer <
hjp-pgsql(at)hjp(dot)at <mailto:hjp-pgsql(at)hjp(dot)at>>: On 2019-09-17 14:56:30 +0300,
Ashkar Dev wrote:
> but it is saying (without fee)
> if I create a database with it to work with Web Application if want to sell
it
> so the buyer must have the PostgreSQL installed in his device to work
offline
> right?
> "Permission to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software and its
> documentation for any purpose, without fee, and without a written agreement
is
> hereby granted, provided that the above copyright notice and this paragraph
and
> the following two paragraphs appear in all copies."

This means that you don't have to pay a fee or sign a written agreement
to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software and its documentation
for any purpose. It doesn't say that you can't charge a fee for
distributing (although why anybody would pay you for something they can
download themselves for free I don't know).

hp A rule of thumb is - you can do anything you want with it (the PG software
inc. its source), except claim you wrote it, as long as you preserve the
original license-file(s). -- Andreas Joseph Krogh CTO / Partner - Visena AS
Mobile: +47 909 56 963 andreas(at)visena(dot)com <mailto:andreas(at)visena(dot)com>
www.visena.com <https://www.visena.com> <https://www.visena.com>

> On Sep 17, 2019, at 4:18 PM, Andreas Joseph Krogh <andreas(at)visena(dot)com> wrote:
>
> På tirsdag 17. september 2019 kl. 22:55:02, skrev Peter J. Holzer <hjp-pgsql(at)hjp(dot)at <mailto:hjp-pgsql(at)hjp(dot)at>>:
> On 2019-09-17 14:56:30 +0300, Ashkar Dev wrote:
> > but it is saying (without fee)
> > if I create a database with it to work with Web Application if want to sell it
> > so the buyer must have the PostgreSQL installed in his device to work offline
> > right?
> > "Permission to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software and its
> > documentation for any purpose, without fee, and without a written agreement is
> > hereby granted, provided that the above copyright notice and this paragraph and
> > the following two paragraphs appear in all copies."
>
> This means that you don't have to pay a fee or sign a written agreement
> to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software and its documentation
> for any purpose. It doesn't say that you can't charge a fee for
> distributing (although why anybody would pay you for something they can
> download themselves for free I don't know).
>
> hp
>
> A rule of thumb is - you can do anything you want with it (the PG software inc. its source), except claim you wrote it, as long as you preserve the original license-file(s).
>
I take it that the OP has an app/dataset on top of PG he/she wishes to market (and protect). Perfectly legit, no? Not clear if there is a desire to disable direct db access.

På onsdag 18. september 2019 kl. 01:07:41, skrev Rob Sargent <
robjsargent(at)gmail(dot)com <mailto:robjsargent(at)gmail(dot)com>>: On Sep 17, 2019, at 4:18
PM, Andreas Joseph Krogh <andreas(at)visena(dot)com <mailto:andreas(at)visena(dot)com>> wrote:
På tirsdag 17. september 2019 kl. 22:55:02, skrev Peter J. Holzer <
hjp-pgsql(at)hjp(dot)at <mailto:hjp-pgsql(at)hjp(dot)at>>: On 2019-09-17 14:56:30 +0300,
Ashkar Dev wrote:
> but it is saying (without fee)
> if I create a database with it to work with Web Application if want to sell
it
> so the buyer must have the PostgreSQL installed in his device to work
offline
> right?
> "Permission to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software and its
> documentation for any purpose, without fee, and without a written agreement
is
> hereby granted, provided that the above copyright notice and this paragraph
and
> the following two paragraphs appear in all copies."

This means that you don't have to pay a fee or sign a written agreement
to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software and its documentation
for any purpose. It doesn't say that you can't charge a fee for
distributing (although why anybody would pay you for something they can
download themselves for free I don't know).

hp A rule of thumb is - you can do anything you want with it (the PG software
inc. its source), except claim you wrote it, as long as you preserve the
original license-file(s). I take it that the OP has an app/dataset on top of
PG he/she wishes to market (and protect). Perfectly legit, no? Not clear if
there is a desire to disable direct db access. That seems perfectly legit. I'm
not sure what "to work offline" means, but using PG for whatever commercial
purposes is totally fine, given the license-requirement above. -- Andreas
Joseph Krogh CTO / Partner - Visena AS Mobile: +47 909 56 963 andreas(at)visena(dot)com
<mailto:andreas(at)visena(dot)com> www.visena.com <https://www.visena.com>
<https://www.visena.com>

Hi all thanks,
I meant maybe I create a web app with PostgreSQL that work locally for
example for a pharmacy that stores data by barcode while the DB was created
by PostgreSQL how I can sell the Database for him, how to deliver the
product to him can I sell the package that contains web app files with
PostgreSQL software and the database code?

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 2:23 AM Andreas Joseph Krogh <andreas(at)visena(dot)com>
wrote:

> På onsdag 18. september 2019 kl. 01:07:41, skrev Rob Sargent <
> robjsargent(at)gmail(dot)com>:
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 17, 2019, at 4:18 PM, Andreas Joseph Krogh <andreas(at)visena(dot)com>
> wrote:
>
> På tirsdag 17. september 2019 kl. 22:55:02, skrev Peter J. Holzer <
> hjp-pgsql(at)hjp(dot)at>:
>
> On 2019-09-17 14:56:30 +0300, Ashkar Dev wrote:
> > but it is saying (without fee)
> > if I create a database with it to work with Web Application if want to
> sell it
> > so the buyer must have the PostgreSQL installed in his device to work
> offline
> > right?
> > "Permission to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software and its
> > documentation for any purpose, without fee, and without a written
> agreement is
> > hereby granted, provided that the above copyright notice and this
> paragraph and
> > the following two paragraphs appear in all copies."
>
> This means that you don't have to pay a fee or sign a written agreement
> to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software and its documentation
> for any purpose. It doesn't say that you can't charge a fee for
> distributing (although why anybody would pay you for something they can
> download themselves for free I don't know).
>
> hp
>
>
> A rule of thumb is - you can do anything you want with it (the PG software
> inc. its source), except claim you wrote it, as long as you preserve the
> original license-file(s).
>
>
> I take it that the OP has an app/dataset on top of PG he/she wishes to
> market (and protect). Perfectly legit, no? Not clear if there is a desire
> to disable direct db access.
>
>
> That seems perfectly legit. I'm not sure what "to work offline" means, but
> using PG for whatever commercial purposes is totally fine, given the
> license-requirement above.
>
> --
> *Andreas Joseph Krogh*
> CTO / Partner - Visena AS
> Mobile: +47 909 56 963
> andreas(at)visena(dot)com
> www.visena.com
> <https://www.visena.com>
>
>

On 9/18/19 11:50 AM, Ashkar Dev wrote:
> Hi all thanks,
> I meant maybe I create a web app with PostgreSQL that work locally for
> example for a pharmacy that stores data by barcode while the DB was
> created by PostgreSQL how I can sell the Database for him, how to
> deliver the product to him can I sell the package that contains web
> app files with PostgreSQL software and the database code?
>
You can charge the pharmacist for your efforts: your web app (license),
installing postgres and your schema (somewhere) and the data supporting
your web-app, any documentation of your web-app and schema, any
maintenance and support you care to specify. You can copy-right your app
and schema and data.

You cannot (legitimately) charge the pharmacist for any part PostgresQL.

On 9/18/19 11:06 AM, Rob Sargent wrote:
>
> On 9/18/19 11:50 AM, Ashkar Dev wrote:
>> Hi all thanks,
>> I meant maybe I create a web app with PostgreSQL that work locally for
>> example for a pharmacy that stores data by barcode while the DB was
>> created by PostgreSQL how I can sell the Database for him, how to
>> deliver the product to him can I sell the package that contains web
>> app files with PostgreSQL software and the database code?
>>
> You can charge the pharmacist for your efforts: your web app (license),
> installing postgres and your schema (somewhere) and the data supporting
> your web-app, any documentation of your web-app and schema, any
> maintenance and support you care to specify. You can copy-right your app
> and schema and data.
>
> You cannot (legitimately) charge the pharmacist for any part PostgresQL.

Why not?

Pretty sure that is what third parties are doing with their forks of
Postgres.

--
Adrian Klaver
adrian(dot)klaver(at)aklaver(dot)com

> On Sep 18, 2019, at 12:17 PM, Adrian Klaver <adrian(dot)klaver(at)aklaver(dot)com> wrote:
>
> On 9/18/19 11:06 AM, Rob Sargent wrote:
>> On 9/18/19 11:50 AM, Ashkar Dev wrote:
>>> Hi all thanks,
>>> I meant maybe I create a web app with PostgreSQL that work locally for example for a pharmacy that stores data by barcode while the DB was created by PostgreSQL how I can sell the Database for him, how to deliver the product to him can I sell the package that contains web app files with PostgreSQL software and the database code?
>>>
>> You can charge the pharmacist for your efforts: your web app (license), installing postgres and your schema (somewhere) and the data supporting your web-app, any documentation of your web-app and schema, any maintenance and support you care to specify. You can copy-right your app and schema and data.
>> You cannot (legitimately) charge the pharmacist for any part PostgresQL.
>
> Why not?
>
> Pretty sure that is what third parties are doing with their forks of Postgres.
>
I see your point, but aren’t they in essence charging for their efforts in making, managing their fork. There are plenty of vendors, for a time I was one, who happily apply a schema to which ever database the client supplied (mssql, ora, pg in my case).

On 9/18/19 11:23 AM, Rob Sargent wrote:
>
>
>> On Sep 18, 2019, at 12:17 PM, Adrian Klaver <adrian(dot)klaver(at)aklaver(dot)com> wrote:
>>
>> On 9/18/19 11:06 AM, Rob Sargent wrote:
>>> On 9/18/19 11:50 AM, Ashkar Dev wrote:
>>>> Hi all thanks,
>>>> I meant maybe I create a web app with PostgreSQL that work locally for example for a pharmacy that stores data by barcode while the DB was created by PostgreSQL how I can sell the Database for him, how to deliver the product to him can I sell the package that contains web app files with PostgreSQL software and the database code?
>>>>
>>> You can charge the pharmacist for your efforts: your web app (license), installing postgres and your schema (somewhere) and the data supporting your web-app, any documentation of your web-app and schema, any maintenance and support you care to specify. You can copy-right your app and schema and data.
>>> You cannot (legitimately) charge the pharmacist for any part PostgresQL.
>>
>> Why not?
>>
>> Pretty sure that is what third parties are doing with their forks of Postgres.
>>
> I see your point, but aren’t they in essence charging for their efforts in making, managing their fork. There are plenty of vendors, for a time I was one, who happily apply a schema to which ever database the client supplied (mssql, ora, pg in my case).

In general that pretty much applies to a lot of software that has price.
You don't actually own the software, just a paid license to use it. I'm
not saying whether it is a good idea or not, just that it is possible.

--
Adrian Klaver
adrian(dot)klaver(at)aklaver(dot)com

Thanks,
but is it legal to charge for installing PostgreSQL?
as you said:

> You cannot (legitimately) charge the pharmacist for any part PostgresQL

should I in the contract write that the price does not include installing
PostgreSQL, preparing it or PostgreSQL itself?
or just from my side while I am going to set price I have to dont count
installing the PostgreSQL or PostgreSQL itself as a part of that price?

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 9:06 PM Rob Sargent <robjsargent(at)gmail(dot)com> wrote:

>
> On 9/18/19 11:50 AM, Ashkar Dev wrote:
> > Hi all thanks,
> > I meant maybe I create a web app with PostgreSQL that work locally for
> > example for a pharmacy that stores data by barcode while the DB was
> > created by PostgreSQL how I can sell the Database for him, how to
> > deliver the product to him can I sell the package that contains web
> > app files with PostgreSQL software and the database code?
> >
> You can charge the pharmacist for your efforts: your web app (license),
> installing postgres and your schema (somewhere) and the data supporting
> your web-app, any documentation of your web-app and schema, any
> maintenance and support you care to specify. You can copy-right your app
> and schema and data.
>
> You cannot (legitimately) charge the pharmacist for any part PostgresQL.
>
>

On 9/18/19 3:11 PM, Ashkar Dev wrote:
> Thanks,
> but is it legal to charge for installing PostgreSQL?

Yes, otherwise these folks:

https://www.postgresql.org/support/professional_support/

would a good deal less business.

> as you said:
>
> You cannot (legitimately) charge the pharmacist for any part PostgresQL
>
> should I in the contract write that the price does not include
> installing PostgreSQL, preparing it or PostgreSQL itself?
>  or just from my side while I am going to set price I have to dont
> count installing the PostgreSQL or PostgreSQL itself as a part of that
> price?
>
> On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 9:06 PM Rob Sargent <robjsargent(at)gmail(dot)com
> <mailto:robjsargent(at)gmail(dot)com>> wrote:
>
>
> On 9/18/19 11:50 AM, Ashkar Dev wrote:
> > Hi all thanks,
> > I meant maybe I create a web app with PostgreSQL that work
> locally for
> > example for a pharmacy that stores data by barcode while the DB was
> > created by PostgreSQL how I can sell the Database for him, how to
> > deliver the product to him can I sell the package that contains web
> > app files with PostgreSQL software and the database code?
> >
> You can charge the pharmacist for your efforts: your web app (license),
> installing postgres and your schema (somewhere) and the data supporting
> your web-app, any documentation of your web-app and schema, any
> maintenance and support you care to specify. You can copy-right your
> app
> and schema and data.
>
> You cannot (legitimately) charge the pharmacist for any part PostgresQL.
>

--
Adrian Klaver
adrian(dot)klaver(at)aklaver(dot)com

Charging for *installing* PostgreSQL is not the same as charging for PostgreSQL.

Bottom line: you charge for *services**you provide* not for software that
other people provide.

On 9/18/19 5:11 PM, Ashkar Dev wrote:
> Thanks,
> but is it legal to charge for installing PostgreSQL?
> as you said:
>
> You cannot (legitimately) charge the pharmacist for any part PostgresQL
>
> should I in the contract write that the price does not include installing
> PostgreSQL, preparing it or PostgreSQL itself?
>  or just from my side while I am going to set price I have to dont count
> installing the PostgreSQL or PostgreSQL itself as a part of that price?
>
> On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 9:06 PM Rob Sargent <robjsargent(at)gmail(dot)com
> <mailto:robjsargent(at)gmail(dot)com>> wrote:
>
>
> On 9/18/19 11:50 AM, Ashkar Dev wrote:
> > Hi all thanks,
> > I meant maybe I create a web app with PostgreSQL that work locally for
> > example for a pharmacy that stores data by barcode while the DB was
> > created by PostgreSQL how I can sell the Database for him, how to
> > deliver the product to him can I sell the package that contains web
> > app files with PostgreSQL software and the database code?
> >
> You can charge the pharmacist for your efforts: your web app (license),
> installing postgres and your schema (somewhere) and the data supporting
> your web-app, any documentation of your web-app and schema, any
> maintenance and support you care to specify. You can copy-right your app
> and schema and data.
>
> You cannot (legitimately) charge the pharmacist for any part PostgresQL.
>

--
Angular momentum makes the world go 'round.

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 3:20 PM Ron <ronljohnsonjr(at)gmail(dot)com> wrote:

> Charging for *installing* PostgreSQL is not the same as charging for
> PostgreSQL.
>
> Bottom line: you charge for *services** you provide* not for software
> that other people provide.
>
> That's just really not true. There is nothing that prohibits you from
selling Postgresql. I mean, it's not a great business model because you
can get it for free, but there's nothing that stops you from doing it.

Cheers,
Ken

--
AGENCY Software
A Free Software data system
By and for non-profits
*http://agency-software.org/ <http://agency-software.org/>*
*https://demo.agency-software.org/client
<https://demo.agency-software.org/client>*
ken(dot)tanzer(at)agency-software(dot)org
(253) 245-3801

Subscribe to the mailing list
<agency-general-request(at)lists(dot)sourceforge(dot)net?body=subscribe> to
learn more about AGENCY or
follow the discussion.

On 9/18/19 6:03 PM, Ken Tanzer wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 3:20 PM Ron <ronljohnsonjr(at)gmail(dot)com
> <mailto:ronljohnsonjr(at)gmail(dot)com>> wrote:
>
> Charging for *installing* PostgreSQL is not the same as charging for
> PostgreSQL.
>
> Bottom line: you charge for *services**you provide* not for software
> that other people provide.
>
> That's just really not true.  There is nothing that prohibits you from
> selling Postgresql.  I mean, it's not a great business model because you
> can get it for free, but there's nothing that stops you from doing it.

Quoting Adrian Klaver in this thread from about eight hours ago: "You cannot
(legitimately) charge the pharmacist for any part PostgresQL."

--
Angular momentum makes the world go 'round.

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 5:55 PM Ron <ronljohnsonjr(at)gmail(dot)com> wrote:

> On 9/18/19 6:03 PM, Ken Tanzer wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 3:20 PM Ron <ronljohnsonjr(at)gmail(dot)com> wrote:
>
>> Charging for *installing* PostgreSQL is not the same as charging for
>> PostgreSQL.
>>
>> Bottom line: you charge for *services** you provide* not for software
>> that other people provide.
>>
>> That's just really not true. There is nothing that prohibits you from
> selling Postgresql. I mean, it's not a great business model because you
> can get it for free, but there's nothing that stops you from doing it.
>
>
> Quoting Adrian Klaver in this thread from about eight hours ago: "You
> cannot (legitimately) charge the pharmacist for any part PostgresQL."
>
>
>
Actually that's Rob Sargent you're quoting. Adrian took issue with that
statement, as do I. While Google isn't finding me anything that says
"Yes, you can sell Postgresql," here are a few points:

- Point to anything in the license wording that says you can't charge
money to distribute Postgresql. You can't.

- Even software licensed under the GPL, which is a considerably more
restrictive license, can be sold. The free software folks consider the
right to sell as one of the freedoms associated with free software. [1]

- The Postgresql license page says it is "a liberal Open Source license,
similar to the BSD or MIT licenses." [2] The MIT license itself explicitly
states that it grants rights to "sell copies of the software."

Cheers,
Ken

[1] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.en.html
[2] https://www.postgresql.org/about/licence/
[3] https://opensource.org/licenses/MIT

--
AGENCY Software
A Free Software data system
By and for non-profits
*http://agency-software.org/ <http://agency-software.org/>*
*https://demo.agency-software.org/client
<https://demo.agency-software.org/client>*
ken(dot)tanzer(at)agency-software(dot)org
(253) 245-3801

Subscribe to the mailing list
<agency-general-request(at)lists(dot)sourceforge(dot)net?body=subscribe> to
learn more about AGENCY or
follow the discussion.

> On Sep 18, 2019, at 6:55 PM, Ron <ronljohnsonjr(at)gmail(dot)com> wrote:
>
>> On 9/18/19 6:03 PM, Ken Tanzer wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 3:20 PM Ron <ronljohnsonjr(at)gmail(dot)com> wrote:
>>> Charging for installing PostgreSQL is not the same as charging for PostgreSQL.
>>>
>>> Bottom line: you charge for services you provide not for software that other people provide.
>>>
>> That's just really not true. There is nothing that prohibits you from selling Postgresql. I mean, it's not a great business model because you can get it for free, but there's nothing that stops you from doing it.
>
> Quoting Adrian Klaver in this thread from about eight hours ago: "You cannot (legitimately) charge the pharmacist for any part PostgresQL."
>
>
>
That was my thought actually. By legitimate I meant in good conscience as opposed to any comment on the legality
> --
> Angular momentum makes the world go 'round.

On 9/18/19 8:26 PM, Ken Tanzer wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 5:55 PM Ron <ronljohnsonjr(at)gmail(dot)com
> <mailto:ronljohnsonjr(at)gmail(dot)com>> wrote:
>
> On 9/18/19 6:03 PM, Ken Tanzer wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 3:20 PM Ron <ronljohnsonjr(at)gmail(dot)com
>> <mailto:ronljohnsonjr(at)gmail(dot)com>> wrote:
>>
>> Charging for *installing* PostgreSQL is not the same as charging
>> for PostgreSQL.
>>
>> Bottom line: you charge for *services**you provide* not for
>> software that other people provide.
>>
>> That's just really not true.  There is nothing that prohibits you
>> from selling Postgresql.  I mean, it's not a great business model
>> because you can get it for free, but there's nothing that stops you
>> from doing it.
>
> Quoting Adrian Klaver in this thread from about eight hours ago: "You
> cannot (legitimately) charge the pharmacist for any part PostgresQL."
>
>
> Actually that's Rob Sargent you're quoting.  Adrian took issue with that
> statement, as do I.   While Google isn't finding me anything that says
> "Yes, you can sell Postgresql," here are a few points:
>
> * Point to anything in the license wording that says you can't charge
> money to distribute Postgresql.  You can't.
>
> * Even software licensed under the GPL, which is a considerably more
> restrictive license, can be sold.  The free software folks consider
> the right to sell as one of the freedoms associated with free
> software.  [1]
>
> * The Postgresql license page says it is "a liberal Open Source license,
> similar to the BSD or MIT licenses." [2] The MIT license itself
> explicitly states that it grants rights to "sell copies of the software."
>

How do you sell what you don't own?

> Cheers,
> Ken
>
> [1] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.en.html
> [2] https://www.postgresql.org/about/licence/
> [3] https://opensource.org/licenses/MIT
>

--
Angular momentum makes the world go 'round.

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 6:35 PM Ron <ronljohnsonjr(at)gmail(dot)com> wrote:

> On 9/18/19 8:26 PM, Ken Tanzer wrote:
>
> On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 5:55 PM Ron <ronljohnsonjr(at)gmail(dot)com> wrote:
>
>> On 9/18/19 6:03 PM, Ken Tanzer wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 3:20 PM Ron <ronljohnsonjr(at)gmail(dot)com> wrote:
>>
>>> Charging for *installing* PostgreSQL is not the same as charging for
>>> PostgreSQL.
>>>
>>> Bottom line: you charge for *services** you provide* not for software
>>> that other people provide.
>>>
>>> That's just really not true. There is nothing that prohibits you from
>> selling Postgresql. I mean, it's not a great business model because you
>> can get it for free, but there's nothing that stops you from doing it.
>>
>>
>> Quoting Adrian Klaver in this thread from about eight hours ago: "You
>> cannot (legitimately) charge the pharmacist for any part PostgresQL."
>>
>>
>>
> Actually that's Rob Sargent you're quoting. Adrian took issue with that
> statement, as do I. While Google isn't finding me anything that says
> "Yes, you can sell Postgresql," here are a few points:
>
>
> - Point to anything in the license wording that says you can't charge
> money to distribute Postgresql. You can't.
>
>
> - Even software licensed under the GPL, which is a considerably more
> restrictive license, can be sold. The free software folks consider the
> right to sell as one of the freedoms associated with free software. [1]
>
>
> - The Postgresql license page says it is "a liberal Open Source
> license, similar to the BSD or MIT licenses." [2] The MIT license itself
> explicitly states that it grants rights to "sell copies of the software."
>
>
> How do you sell what you don't own?
>
>
You can do so because the owners have granted you the right to do so. They
were just good enough to not charge you money for it.

--
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On 9/18/19 11:43 PM, Ken Tanzer wrote:
>
> On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 6:35 PM Ron <ronljohnsonjr(at)gmail(dot)com
> <mailto:ronljohnsonjr(at)gmail(dot)com>> wrote:
>
> On 9/18/19 8:26 PM, Ken Tanzer wrote:
>> On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 5:55 PM Ron <ronljohnsonjr(at)gmail(dot)com
>> <mailto:ronljohnsonjr(at)gmail(dot)com>> wrote:
>>
>> On 9/18/19 6:03 PM, Ken Tanzer wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 3:20 PM Ron <ronljohnsonjr(at)gmail(dot)com
>>> <mailto:ronljohnsonjr(at)gmail(dot)com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Charging for *installing* PostgreSQL is not the same as
>>> charging for PostgreSQL.
>>>
>>> Bottom line: you charge for *services**you provide* not for
>>> software that other people provide.
>>>
>>> That's just really not true.  There is nothing that prohibits
>>> you from selling Postgresql.  I mean, it's not a great business
>>> model because you can get it for free, but there's nothing that
>>> stops you from doing it.
>>
>> Quoting Adrian Klaver in this thread from about eight hours ago:
>> "You cannot (legitimately) charge the pharmacist for any part
>> PostgresQL."
>>
>>
>> Actually that's Rob Sargent you're quoting. Adrian took issue with
>> that statement, as do I.  While Google isn't finding me anything that
>> says "Yes, you can sell Postgresql," here are a few points:
>>
>> * Point to anything in the license wording that says you can't
>> charge money to distribute Postgresql.  You can't.
>>
>> * Even software licensed under the GPL, which is a considerably
>> more restrictive license, can be sold.  The free software folks
>> consider the right to sell as one of the freedoms associated with
>> free software.  [1]
>>
>> * The Postgresql license page says it is "a liberal Open Source
>> license, similar to the BSD or MIT licenses." [2] The MIT license
>> itself explicitly states that it grants rights to "sell copies of
>> the software."
>>
>
> How do you sell what you don't own?
>
>
> You can do so because the owners have granted you the right to do so. 
> They were just good enough to not charge you money for it.

Maybe I'm too literal.  I understand:

1. selling physical media that software comes on,
2. selling access to a server where the software resides, and
3. selling a license to use software.

Selling a license to Postgres is worse than selling bottled water, because
at least the bottled water adds a few chemicals for taste, and they put it
in conveniently sized and shaped bottles.

--
Angular momentum makes the world go 'round.

On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 17:20:14 -0500
Ron <ronljohnsonjr(at)gmail(dot)com> wrote:

> Charging for *installing* PostgreSQL is not the same as charging for
> PostgreSQL.
>
> Bottom line: you charge for *services**you provide* not for software
> that other people provide.

That makes a lot of sense. A head gasket costs about $25.00.
*Installing* the head gasket costs well over a thousand. As long as the
customer has the option to install it himself, you're selling your
services.

If you've modified PostgreSQL, as long as you offer the source code to
the customer and say "good luck installing it by yourself", you can
charge to install it without breaking even the GNU GPL.

My understanding is the PostgreSQL license is more like the MIT
license, which actually allows one to modify the code and claim it as
proprietary.

SteveT

Steve Litt
Author: The Key to Everyday Excellence
http://www.troubleshooters.com/key
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt

On 19/09/2019 13:48, Steve Litt wrote:
> My understanding is the PostgreSQL license is more like the MIT
> license, which actually allows one to modify the code and claim it as
> proprietary.
You could do that, yes. :)

https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/PostgreSQL_derived_databases

Cheers,
  Steve