Celeste Saulo | How to save humanity from climate breakdown (S10-E5)

 

 

Melissa Fleming [00:00:00]

My guest this week has studied the weather her whole career. What keeps her awake at night? The climate crisis.

 

Celeste Saulo [00:00:07]

We can see how many people are suffering, you know, we can tell that. We can see that people [are] running out of food are running out of water. And the real narrative is that this will affect everyone sooner or later.

 

Melissa Fleming [00:00:32]

Celeste Saulo is Secretary-General of the UN's World Meteorological Organization. From the United Nations, I'm Melissa Fleming. This is Awake at Night.

 

Melissa Fleming [00:00:54]

Celeste, you said that climate change is the greatest global threat of our times. Why?

 

Celeste Saulo [00:01:02]

Yes, certainly, Melissa. For me, it's an incredible threat, because it's Nature that is being modified by our activities. And in the end, although science really warned us many years ago, we were not able to change the threat, you know, and now we are experiencing many, many extreme events that are out of our knowledge. And that's why I think it's a crisis of big dimensions, because it also affects the most vulnerable the most. For me it's the intersection between climate change and inequality what creates what we call the climate crisis. Honestly, we don't know how to deal with that, unless we change something.

 

Melissa Fleming [00:01:53]

Could you paint a picture of what climate change looks like when you describe it as the greatest threat of our times? Like, what is this? What do people see, feel, experience when they have climate change at their doorstep?

 

 

 

Celeste Saulo [00:02:10]

Well, let's first start with the basic story that is about what we have created with more greenhouse gases, because of human activity. These greenhouse gases have affected all the radiation budget. And this creates a warming. This warming is the long trend, you can see that in a change in the average temperature. But what you can actually experience are the extreme events.

So events like heavy rains, floods, droughts, severe storms, wildfires - those are completely out of our statistics. And that is because the general trend is changing. We always had extreme events, but as the average has moved towards one side, we are experiencing extreme events that are completely out of our historical records.

When you have three times the snow you used to have, or two times the rain you expect, you have nothing in place to handle that, to cope with that. These extreme events, we are not prepared to deal with those extreme events and that is the real risk for us. And I would add also on top of this, because of the warming, glaciers are melting at a scale that we have never seen before. What does it mean? We are losing fresh water - water we need to drink. And so the impacts are all over the place, in different kind of expressions - from infrastructure affecting your house, affecting your daily life, affecting the way in which you get your food. It's not about climate and a number. It's not an isolated number. It's a temperature that affects everything.

 

 

Melissa Fleming [00:04:16]

Why is it that so many people still think that it either doesn't exist, or it is not as bad as we should think it is?

 

Celeste Saulo [00:04:27]

Honestly, I don't understand those people. Certainly I don't, because we can see how many people are suffering, you know. We can see that people [are] running out of food, are running out of water. Small Island Developing States have a lot of situations concerning sea level rise, where they see the coastal areas affected and with coastal areas affected, they have problems with fisheries. They also have problems with water, because the salty water is mixed, of course, with the drinkable water.

Maybe there is a reluctance to really understand that we are responsible for this and it's easier to think that, okay, these will change magically without any intervention, this will be solved, or whatever. It's easy for us, for some people maybe to say, okay, this is normal, this is natural, there is nothing I can do. And I think that that is the easy narrative. But honestly, that is not the real narrative. The real narrative is that this will affect everyone, sooner or later. So it's about taking the right decision at the right moment for the benefit of the majority. That's my point.

 

Melissa Fleming [00:05:52]

Some of the world's most vulnerable countries are suffering so disproportionately already. Are there places that you're particularly concerned about and have you visited some of these places?

 

Celeste Saulo [00:06:05]

Yeah, certainly. I'm really concerned about Small Island Developing States. I visited Tonga, I visited Fiji, and I could recognise how they feel really, in terms of how exposed they are to climate extremes, how vulnerable they are. Africa is also a very vulnerable continent, of course.

I think that it is not fair to speak only about the vulnerable. I think that we need to speak about everyone, because if we put the issue on the vulnerable, we may lose the idea that everyone is being affected, it's not only the vulnerable.

Of course, we care more about them, because they are suffering the most and they need more urgent action. But we need to really raise awareness on the level of [the] crisis we are navigating through.

 

Melissa Fleming [00:07:05]

And I was struck that there are some weather forecasters, or weather people, who actually do speak about climate change in their forecasts and have been getting death threats. Is it an act of courage to equate weather conditions, to issue warnings, or to say that what just happened could be attributed to global warming? Is that an act of courage these days?

 

Celeste Saulo [00:07:36]

I think it is something we need to take into consideration, because we are forecasters. Okay, we issue a forecast, we issue a warning and then we build, I would say, some ideas into the population, why is it happening? And we should bring to the discussion - okay, this may be happening because of climate change. And if it is about climate change, what should I do? Okay, there is something you can do to avoid worsening climate change.

So for me, building that narrative is, I would say the positive way of doing [it] - it's not just to frighten people. There is something you can do about this. And then it starts to be part of your own responsibility. Okay, what can I do?

 

Melissa Fleming [00:08:32]

There are also a lot of things that individuals can do to mitigate climate change or to, you know, to reduce their carbon footprint in the world. Is it important - because I have read studies that, you know, the people who are aware are starting to feel this kind of doomism and lack of agency? What would you say to them?

 

Celeste Saulo [00:08:58]

I would say that it makes a lot of sense to do something. It makes a lot of sense, regardless of whether it can be quantified or not. You sleep better at night if you can say, okay, I did my best not to contribute to more waste, not to contribute to more carbon emissions, not to contribute to fossil fuels usage. I did my best. So here I am. For me, it's an individual issue also. It's not only about the leaders. Of course, the leaders have more responsibility, certainly, because the leaders make decisions that affect many others.

But individually, you can do something at home. Turn off the lights if you don't use them. Don't use the car if you are 20 blocks away from the place where you need to go. How much is my consumption? Should I, can I reduce it in a way? I think it deserves your thinking.

 

Melissa Fleming [00:10:13]

What is keeping you awake at night when you think about climate change and extreme weather?

 

Celeste Saulo [00:10:21]

I think that, well, I have a grandson. He's almost one year old now. And so I'm really concerned about what the world will look like when he's my age, you know? And I feel responsible for him - and through him - of so many kids all over the place that are not responsible at all [for what's happened to the climate]. And they will suffer the most, regardless of whether they are in the developed world, or whether they are in a Small Island Developing State in the least developed world. They will suffer more than we are suffering and this is completely unfair. So I feel guilty. I feel guilty. I feel responsible for doing something, you know? I think that we are responsible for the young generation and we need to do something. So that is something that keeps me awake. So what can I do better for the benefit of those that are to be here when I'm not here.

 

 

Melissa Fleming [00:11:27]

What is your grandson's name?

 

Celeste Saulo [00:11:29]

His name is Milo.

 

Melissa Fleming [00:11:31]

So if you could describe a world that is possible, because we actually have the solutions to transform our climate and to get it back on track, to prevent, to preserve, to restore our natural environment. Can you paint a picture of what that world would look like for Milo when he is an adult?

 

Celeste Saulo [00:12:00]

Oh, I've never think about that. I think that I would like a world where he lives with more, I would say, in a balanced way with nature. I think that when I was raised, I was kind of out of the nature life. And, you know, I come from Buenos Aires, a big city, crowded, noisy, maybe like New York. And I think that there was no - when I was young - no awareness of how important is this balance between nature and human beings. And I would love him to have more consciousness of how important it is to be in equilibrium with your environment, respectful of others' ways of life, including plants, animals, human beings and... respectful of others.

I think that we lost respect for others. And that is a big problem, because we don't, really we don't care. When you lose respect of others' lives, including others within, I would say, plants, animals and human beings, it means that you don't love them. I would love Milo to love the others. And I hope that the kids now and the kids of the future will have the opportunity to really live in harmony with nature.

 

Melissa Fleming [00:13:41]

I believe your organisation with UNDP was involved in the creation of this Weather Kids campaign, where children were actually delivering the weather in really astonishing ways.

 

 

Celeste Saulo [00:13:54]

Yes, I like it very much and I also like the testimonies of the kids that were involved in the campaign and the fathers and mothers behind, because they learned through their kids. How they were moved by forecasting weather, but also by telling others that they wanted a better climate. They didn't want to suffer from extreme heat or devastating weather all over the place. They conveyed the message that we could do something, that they were concerned and they were very motivated to participate in the campaign. And I could hear also the testimonies from their parents and their parents said, okay, he or she was so motivated to be part, so I say, okay, why? They couldn't really understand their kids until they saw them participating.

I think that that is one of the strengths of the kids' campaign - moving the family. And through the family you can move the community. And through the community you can move, I would say, the larger structures of the society. And then you build a bigger message.

 

Melissa Fleming [00:15:24]

It was really, really inspiring to see those kids forecasting the weather. And it's true, they're putting on the pressure. So let's hope. I mean one of the, you know, what a lot of people profess is that there is a technological solution for climate change. That there is like carbon capture. But when we think about it, the best way to capture carbon is through some of the very natural elements of our environment that are being destroyed - mangroves and rainforests and... What is your hope that the awareness is there that we can restore these natural carbon capture environments?

 

Celeste Saulo [00:16:19]

Well, definitely these are a must, no? Recovering the natural mechanisms to absorb carbon is critical. But at the same time, I mention this, I say, okay, we are now navigating a situation where, for example, because of the wildfires, or forest fires, we got more carbon dioxide into the atmosphere because of these fires.

So we had two consequences. We lost the trees. We had more carbon dioxide into the system. And this was a consequence of heat waves. So there is a negative feedback there - that science should inform us. So the natural systems are becoming less effective to capture carbon. In fact, last year, because of Canada's big fires, we ended up with more carbon dioxide from the natural system - not all the carbon dioxide I want to make sure to put it very clearly - of course, we had human carbon dioxide sources, but we also had an extra, because we had too many fires. So we are closing the window for these nature-based solutions. So nature-based solutions are important? Yes, we must, because they are natural, so we need to put them in place. But certainly it's not enough.

 

Melissa Fleming [00:18:03]

And we need a transition then to renewable energy fast. And the Secretary-General has called it a renewables revolution and that it's actually already happened. And those who are not investing in it, and clinging on to fossil fuels, are going to be left behind. Do you agree with that?

 

Celeste Saulo [00:18:23]

I do agree certainly that a green transition - and energy transitions - brings a lot of opportunities in terms of jobs, in terms of economies, particularly in continents like Africa, where the potential for renewables is huge, not only for hydropower, but solar, wind. And so it's about investing there to really change completely the generation of energy.

And I think that these are huge opportunities for trade that we are not taking advantage. And again, maybe we will lose the opportunity, because we are not paying attention to continents like Africa, where lots of investment could be made. But only 3% of the investments in renewables went to Africa. So, for me, it's something that we should be speaking all about - common investments, equitable investment, fair transition.

 

Melissa Fleming [00:19:33]

So let's say your organization, WMO, helps monitor and tackle a lot of these problems. Can you just explain what it does? I mean, I know it does so much, but like in a elevator pitch - what is WMO?

 

Celeste Saulo [00:19:48]

Well, we work with the National Meteorological and Hydrological Services. These are the national structures, institutions that gather all the information. They make all the observations to know what the weather looks like, starting from temperature, precipitation, wind, humidity and many other variables. So, we gather all this information, we share it worldwide, so we share this information.

This is crucial because without sharing the information, you will never know what will happen with the weather, you know? So that's why we are a very old organization. We were born 151 years ago and the reason why we were born so, so long ago, is because very early it was recognised the need to share data. So we were built on the idea of sharing and collaborating as the basis to really move forward meteorology. The understanding of the meteorology and the possibility to forecast.

So it's about, WMO is about gathering the data, sharing the data, creating better forecasts, developing better forecast services and then sharing these best practices to really try to diminish the gap between those that are more developed and the ones that are less developed. And of course, it's about building capacity and sharing knowledge.

 

 

Melissa Fleming [00:21:25]

Celeste, you are a double first when it comes to leading the WMO. You're the first female and the first South American. How does that feel?

 

Celeste Saulo [00:21:35]

Well, it feels a huge responsibility, and, you know, many eyes on me. But also a lot of support, I would say. I got a lot of support from many colleagues, mates from all over the world, people that perhaps I never met before. And they say, oh Celeste, we are so happy that you are there. I think that - I come from Argentina, you know, and it's part of the developing world - and I think that we bring a different perspective and my message is that we need to engage with decision-making. It's not only about the developed world. We cannot always ask from the developed world for the answers and the solutions and engagement. We need to be part of that decision-making.

 

Melissa Fleming [00:22:26]

Before you joined WMO, you've been called the Lionel Messi of Meteorology. How did you, what did you think when you heard about that? And then how did you become involved in meteorology in the first place?

 

Celeste Saulo [00:22:42]

Well, I became involved in meteorology because I liked maths and physics, but math and physics alone was kind of boring to me. But math and physics applied to the natural system, which is the atmosphere, for me was much more attractive. So that's how I became involved in meteorology. And although my mom and my father said meteorology what's that? Very, very, I would say, very few people studied meteorology when I studied meteorology. So I said, well, but I am interested in that. Okay, if you are interested, go ahead, we will support you. And then I became in love with meteorology. I became in love with physics applied to meteorology, and I was surprised to understand how the weather evolves and how a cloud grows. And usually I say that I have my favourite clouds, which are cumulonimbus, and they are so impressive - all the processes that happen at the same time to have a cumulonimbus in place is really incredible. So I was passionate about the meteorology when I understood meteorology, and then also I became even more passionate when I taught meteorology to my students.

 

Melissa Fleming [00:24:14]

I mean, generally there are far fewer girls who go into scientific professions. Was it more difficult for you as a girl, as a woman, to break into this profession and to become so successful?

 

Celeste Saulo [00:24:31]

I think it was a little bit complex, yes. And I would say that at the beginning with my family, for them it was natural that I could study meteorology, for them it was okay. Perhaps they thought that I could be a teacher like my grandma. She was a primary school teacher and she was very good. But I said, no, that's not enough for me just to teach. But I would like to teach something that I really like more. And so they understood me. So I got a lot of support.

I was very lucky also because my husband, I got married very, very young and he was very supportive of me working. My salary was really bad, really low. So when my kids were born, I would say that it was more expensive for me to go to work than to stay at home and take care of the kids, you know, but still my husband said no, no, no, Celeste, you cannot stay at home. No, you love what you do. Let's work together, let's continue, we will manage. And we managed, you know, we managed. Then my kids were grown and then it was easier.

And I always have a lot of support from my mates and from my family. So it was difficult, yes. For a while I was not, I would say, competitive with the standards of people from my same age that were males - really were faster than me, because I was taking care of my family and it was okay. It was okay for me, it was my choice. I felt it was my choice. And I'm happy for those choices, because I had the opportunity after a while, I continued and then I had the all the opportunities I needed. It was later, yes, it was later. But it was okay. Like, here I am.

 

Melissa Fleming [00:26:44]

You mentioned a certain kind of cloud. But what was it that fascinated you about the weather?

 

Celeste Saulo [00:26:53]

Well, I think that it's the chaotic nature of weather, the unpredictable nature of weather. It's something really fascinating. When I understood the unpredictability and how unpredictable the atmosphere was I said, oh my God, I thought I was going to study something that would bring me certainties, because I was using physics, mathematics and so on, I say, well, I will be certain.

And then I understood about uncertainty. And I said, oh my God, what will I do, what can we do? And then I understood that when you have uncertainty, you always have something to do to put some more certainty into the uncertain world of meteorology. And I was fascinated by what science brings to the table.

When you are struggling with something you would say, okay - predictability, the limit of predictability is here, there is nothing else you can do. No, there is always something else you can do to walk through the next steps. And we are experiencing that now with artificial intelligence.

So science always brings new avenues to navigate those things that you are not able to cope with. And that for me is the fascination in meteorology, in weather forecasting and how to really manage predictability, or unpredictable fluid dynamics is something that really encouraged me and say, okay, if we can do something out of this uncertainty, we can do something out of the uncertainties we have worldwide.

 

 

Melissa Fleming [00:29:02]

You travel a lot in your job, but I think one of the most interesting trips that you've taken recently was to Rome, where you met Pope Francis and there with him you discussed climate change. What did you tell him and what did he say about his concerns and the issue?

 

Celeste Saulo [00:29:22]

Okay. First of all, before meeting the pope, I read two important documents that were generated, were prepared by the Pope and his team. Laudato si' - this document was presented before COP Paris agreement and it was an impressive document, where it was very well informed by science, by philosophy, by social sciences, and of course, by the Catholic Church.

And in that document, the Pope spoke very clearly about taking care, a common awareness, and taking care of the common house, of the common home for all of us, the planet and the Earth as a common home. Not only... and he also called to action to all the religions... it was not a call only for Christian people. It was a general call. And that deeply resonated with me.

So the idea was sharing with the Pope that we are, of course, concerned about climate change. But I think that the action must be driven by faith, science-informed; that is where WMO and the National Met services and all the science behind can support.

But faith is a very strong sentiment. Faith I love and that is something you can find through your religion, regardless of what is your religion. I think that religion really convey the message of faith and love. And for me, that is the bottom-up approach we need in place - science to serve the purpose of faith and love for the planet, for the human beings, to protect lives.

Early warnings are part of that message. We want to save lives. We need these early warnings to reach everyone on Earth. We won't reach everyone on Earth only by issuing a forecast. And that's where, for me, the church and all the religions have a role to play, because they work at the community level.

And that was my conversation with the Pope. He was really very enthusiastic about joining forces. He was very enthusiastic about this bottom-up approach, because he is really working along those lines. He's concerned about what happens to everyone, for the common good.

 

Melissa Fleming [00:32:30]

How did it feel for you personally to meet the Pope? Were you excited? Were you...

 

Celeste Saulo [00:32:38]

Oh, for me... I was really shocked and really moved by meeting the Pope. I would have never imagined meeting a personality like Francis. Pope Francis is a spiritual leader. Those kind of person you will never meet in your life. He has his own light, you know. And for me it was, okay, for me, for my family, it's a big, big emotion that I would say it's the most important meeting I will have in my whole life as a human being. But also as a leader of an organization that has a responsibility with the world.

I felt also the responsibility to say, okay, we are working together. We are not spreading the word into this religion or the other, global south / global north. It's about a common understanding that we need to work together. And having the Pope in front of me - a person that is so humble, so warm, so friendly, that could be my grandpa, you know. It was like, hi, Celeste, how are you doing? You say, okay, I'm speaking with the pope, you know, and he is so humble and I need to learn so, so much from him. From his profound understanding of human capacities and human vulnerability. And that deep understanding that he has is a driving force. I hope I can have some of that driving force to work along with him and others that really believe in the good quality of the human being.

 

 

Melissa Fleming [00:34:45]

Are you hopeful about the possibility that we can adapt, that we can transform and we can address climate change?

 

Celeste Saulo [00:34:58]

Yes. Yes, I am. I am hopeful. And that's why I'm trying to reach different actors, different players. I think that, of course, I'm not hopeful if we continue doing exactly the same thing. We know that doing the same thing, we will crash the ship, you know. So it's about looking for alternatives, alternatives that you can find in different parts of the society, in the community, in your own behaviour. Speaking with the youth, working with the youth. I do believe that youth have to be involved from the very beginning. And I also believe that we need to embrace their ways of thinking. It's not about our way of thinking - about their way of thinking.

And if you work with youth, you need to have hope. Because, it's not fair. For me it's not fair not having hope. It's unfair. So for them, we need to have hope. We need to work along the lines we believe are better opportunities for them and we need to engage them. And I would say to follow them.

 

Melissa Fleming [00:36:35]

Celeste, thank you.

 

Celeste Saulo [00:36:36]

Thank you very much, Melissa. It was my pleasure. I was thinking a lot yesterday while answering your questions, because you put questions that usually they are not the common ones, but are the important ones. So thank you very much.

 

 

 

Melissa Fleming [00:36:53]

Thank you for listening to Awake at Night. We'll be back soon with more incredible and inspiring stories from people working against huge challenges to make this world better and safer.

To find out more about the series and the extraordinary people featured, do visit un.org/awake-at-night. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and please take the time to review us. It helps more people to find the show.

Thanks to my editor Bethany Bell, to Adam Paylor, and to my colleagues at the UN: Katerina Kitidi, Roberta Politi, Carlos Macias, Abby Vardeleon, Laura Rodriguez De Castro, Tulin Battikhi and Bissera Kostova. The original music for this podcast was written and performed by Nadine Shah and produced by Ben Hillier.